brainygamer
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Registered: 07/13/08
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| Posted 06/19/11 at 11:19 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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Post your thoughts on the bottom of the well here.
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Michael Abbott
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DrZ
Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 25
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| Posted 06/24/11 at 11:45 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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Original post moved here as i just discovered this thread 
I was in Kakariko village last night and managed to come across a section that i have ABSOLUTELY NO RECOLLECTION OF....
It's down the well after playing the song of storms in the windmill
*SPOILER WARNING* - for anyone who hasn't been back to kakariko since getting the three spiritual stonesHaven't spoilerised the text, due to the largely block spoilering going on, but just let me know if people want it blacked out 
So yeh, I just headed into the dungeon at the bottom of the well and now have the lens of truth. I found this dungeon actually rather creepy, as it had all the cliched features, what with cages, trapdoors and skeletons dotted around the place. I only found the lens of truth towards the end, so i spent a lot of time falling down fake floors :S
For the record, I thought the boss fight was quite terrifying! Being grabbed by those flailing hands just as the creature shambles right up to you had me frantically hammering A....
I thought the number of hidden chests in this dungeon was a little off-putting, especially as by the time i got the compass and lens, there were still hundreds of them around. What with most of them containing useless items that i already had, i found it quite frustrating that i had spent so much time trying to track down every one...
Also, i'd just like to repeat that falling down fake floors over and over again is NOT FUN! Guess I should've paid more attention and headed for the boss room earlier on. I spent the first half of my time there thinking that i must have come here too soon and that I would NEED the lens of truth for this dungeon...
For some reason the dungeon reminded me of Demon's Souls, what with the repetition needed for certain sections and the overall unforgiving-ness of it all... Anyway, long rambling post that didn't achieve much, but just wondering what other peoples opinions were?
*SPOILER OVER*
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Jacob
Registered: 06/19/11
Posts: 43
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| Posted 06/24/11 at 12:42 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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This is one of those sections that kind of surprised me with what they were able to get away with in a rated E game. That boss is seriously disturbing, and all the little jail cells with rotting skeletons were quite creepy as well. I found it enjoyable atmospherically, but I agree with DrZ that those fake floors got a little ridiculous after awhile.
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DrZ
Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 25
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| Posted 06/28/11 at 11:11 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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| it wouldnt be so bad if the return journey didnt involve two ladders and climbing over a toxic lake.... the 20th time of that was pretty grating
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fuzzym
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 15
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| Posted 07/02/11 at 03:26 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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| I didn't really spend much time down here, just got the Lens and left. However, I definitely enjoyed the atmosphere here and I have to say, this dungeon has my favorite music thus far in the game. |
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TylorWayne
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 07/10/11 at 04:58 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jacob
This is one of those sections that kind of surprised me with what they were able to get away with in a rated E game. That boss is seriously disturbing, and all the little jail cells with rotting skeletons were quite creepy as well. I found it enjoyable atmospherically, but I agree with DrZ that those fake floors got a little ridiculous after awhile.
Not to mention the bloodied crosses that I can only assume were torture/execution devices. Makes me wonder, are the Kakariko folks drinking the water from this well?
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 07/11/11 at 11:25 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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This is a strange little area. A vast majority of it is optional; all you actually need to do is lower the water level, crawl through the hole near the entrance and fight one monster, and you can leave. What's the consensus on why it's built this way? Is it just misdirection, or is it geared toward completionists, or is the whole mini-dungeon an afterthought, or what?
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 07/16/11 at 10:04 AM | Reply with quote #8 |
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| I'd say my experience with this dungeon was pretty similar to DrZ's: I really dug the atmosphere - especially that genuinely terrifying boss...how did I not remember him?! - in spite of the frustrating elements. And really, even the frustrating elements are "fair." I made several attempts to get through that room with the hidden holes (you know the one) without the Lens of Truth before realizing that I was probably making it too hard on myself; went back, explored some more until I found the Lens, and the room was more or less a breeze (although I still think I spazzed out and fell again at least once). In a lot of ways, what with the water level puzzle and the rather steep difficulty, this dungeon felt like the little brother of the Water Temple. It was fun in a similarly masochistic kind of way.
Per MoriartyL's question, I'd say that the "optional" elements of the dungeon are by design. The whole point of the place is that there's more to it than meets the eye: it's genuinely confusing if you haven't played through it before (or if, like me, you just forgot almost all of it). So to me, those completely extraneous fake walls and treasure chests serve as red herrings for players who haven't yet found the right path...and for players who are on the right track, they're tempting diversions that might pay off (with Gold Skulltulas, for example) or, more likely, might not (with a chest full of Deku Nuts  ). I'm pretty sure the last chest I opened in this dungeon contained the Compass, which was of course useless by this time. I actually quite enjoyed that sense of everything being topsy-turvy. |
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 07/16/11 at 04:08 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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| Something I forgot to mention re: this dungeon's defeating of expectations: I was kind of tickled by the room with all the coffins and torches. Having been conditioned by the game to expect a "light every torch in the room" puzzle every time I see one lit torch and several unlit ones, it was a small but satisfying surprise to see that this time, each individual torch I lit would open a corresponding coffin...and what was inside could either be very good (a key) or very bad (a Gibdo)! It was a nice little twist on the game's own conventions...plus I just loved the coffins. Between this and the Shadow Temple, this part of the game is just teeming with great, spooky atmosphere. |
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phisheep
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 07/17/11 at 03:52 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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I'm trying to work up the courage to go down here, but until then I just want to explain a bit what a tough time I had getting to this stage.
I had to resort to a Sheikah Stone eventually for the first time.
Trouble was, I couldn't find anyone telling me I had to go back to the Temple of Time and do something there. Sure, there were all sorts of odd little clues from the music man in the windmill, from the old man near Impa's cottage and Saria said something about having to travel back and forth in time, but nothing pointed me to the temple.
I guess I must have missed a cue somewhere after the Forest Temple (judging by what Sheik said when I eventually got to the temple that's when I think I should have got there).
After polishing off the Fire and Water temples I ended up in Kakariko, horrifyingly all ablaze and with what looks like the monster from LOST wandering all over it, Sheik sent me to the Shadow temple (which I had clean forgot about) and a block at the entrance said I needed the lens of truth.
Now I have played the game before and I know what to do, but I'm still trying to play with my naive first-timer hat on and I may have turned the sensitivity up a notch too far, but I couldn't find anything pointing me back to Hyrule town.
First time I have felt properly lost. Anyone else get this?
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shallow_depths
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 26
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| Posted 07/17/11 at 11:18 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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I remembered I needed to go to the bottom of the well for the lens of truth because of something one of the Kakariko villagers had said, but since it's blocked up as an adult and I can't use the iron boots as a child I wasn't sure how to get down there. I was thinking I needed some way of diving deeper. Then I remembered what the guy in the windmill had said, and felt like an idiot. I think I missed a lot of this dungeon, just muddled through to the boss and back out again.
The creepy elements are one of the pleasant surprises of this playthrough. The boss wouldn't be out of place in Silent Hill. I think if I'd played this as a kid it would have felt like I was getting away with something, which is an important part of the attraction.
The boss fight is also interesting because letting the hands grab you is counter-intuitive. Everything has been about growing up, getting stronger, finding better tools, etc. Here we make ourselves deliberately vulnerable. Although I suppose this could be more about cunning than weakness. |
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 07/18/11 at 07:58 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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This may be a silly question, but: the way we get into the well... why does that work exactly? I've never understood the logic behind it. I mean, I understand the game logic: you're told to do it, so you do it. I just don't understand what the idea is.
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shallow_depths
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 26
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| Posted 07/18/11 at 08:28 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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@MoriartyL Windmills are often used to pump water, if that's what you mean?
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 07/18/11 at 09:18 AM | Reply with quote #14 |
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| @phisheep: I had a similar experience, although I actually checked the Sheikah Stone before I got stuck. I noticed the one in the Temple of Time and wanted to see what the videos were like, and fortunately the one I happened to watch gave some pretty important hints about getting into the well; otherwise I would have been even more lost. Even as it was, I went back in time all ready to drain the well and get down to business...only to realize that I didn't have the song, and the windmill guy could only teach it to me in the future. It's definitely not as terrible a roadblock as some games I've played (I didn't even think to "call" Saria...that would have helped!), but in a game that usually progresses as smoothly as this one, any moments of genuine difficulty stick out quite a bit. |
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 07/18/11 at 10:12 AM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by shallow_depths
@MoriartyL Windmills are often used to pump water, if that's what you mean?
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phisheep
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 07/18/11 at 05:36 PM | Reply with quote #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Shouldn't the storm just add more water, though?
That reminds me of the old-school maths questions I used to have to do. If the storm generates rain at a rate of 1 inch per hour (that's a pretty heavy rain) then you're adding an inch an hour to the level in the well, but storms also generate wind over the large surface area of the windmill which, judging by the cutscene, empties the well at a rate of something like 10 feet per second. That may well be exaggerated for the sake of videogame effect, but if windmills couldn't empty water faster than it falls from the sky then most of the Netherlands wouldn't exist.
erhem. Sorry, am I boring you? 
Anyhow. I'm down here now. In the well with the rest of you. And I do not like it one little bit. It takes only a couple of fake walls/real falls to realise that nothing here can be trusted. Nothing. I'm walking on tippytoes - as if that'll help any!
Devious, devious dungeon design. You naturally follow the corridor anticlockwise so as to not meet the giant skull head on - then when you fall through a hole it brings you out back near the entrance. I still haven't legitimately found the [spoiler]thing I'm supposed to find at the back of the temple[unspoiler].
I think I am going to have to spend another couple of days down here to crack it. Not looking forward to it at all, but looking forward to finishing.
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Becca
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Registered: 10/01/10
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| Posted 07/25/11 at 02:13 PM | Reply with quote #17 |
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| I find this part of the game pretty disturbing, especially if you think about it too much. By this I mean that I've been thinking about it a lot the past few days and trying to figure out why it's so creepy. You could almost say it's out of place and the only reason that it's like this is because it's the Place You Go Before the Shadow Temple and thus must fit the theme. Kind of like how the Ice Cavern is about frozen water. But I think we're supposed to think that corruption of this place is because of the entity that was trapped here by Impa (which, presumably, was still there when you go to get the Lens of Truth as a kid).
Jacob and TylorWayne both get at the unsettling part of this dungeon. If you go through quickly and get the Lens and get out, you can miss a lot of the creepy decorations in this place.
Anyone else notice how the boss of this place and the ReDead/Gibdos take a while to disappear after being killed? Kind of like they might get back up again... |
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 07/25/11 at 06:59 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
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The main gameplay theme here is fake walls. It's less a dungeon in the usual Zelda sense than it is a maze, with something hidden inside it. And it's found right at the entrance. Literally, you've got a wall introducing the idea of the place and then right there at your feet is the goal. Everything else is misdirection. This makes for a very nice setup for the Lens of Truth, though it's not a very interesting item design-wise. It probably sounded better as an idea than it is in practice. The problem with it is very simple and fundamental. If an enemy or puzzle can only be seen while you're looking through the Lens of Truth, it doesn't change the gameplay one bit. You just press the button to see the truth, and then it's business as usual for as long as your plentiful magic lasts. So it's mainly there for the visual hook of things suddenly appearing in the middle of the screen, and not for any gameplay benefit.
I think it could have been much more engaging if it had been a lot more limiting. It could have burned through magic really quickly, requiring you to use it sparingly and stock up on magic in bottles. Or it could have only worked while you're holding the button down, meaning that to fight invisible enemies you'd need to go back to not seeing them. Or scarier still, they might have made it just give you a momentary flash of the truth, so that you'd need to keep pressing the button to see what you're doing. (Imagine how horrifying it would be to get choked by a little Floormaster in the Shadow Temple without seeing it!) But any of these options would have gotten some players to give up. It wouldn't surprise me if the original intent was to make the Lens of Truth harder to use than this, but that wouldn't fly in 1998. If it were the 80s you'd only be able to use it once in each room and there would be hidden passageways to find (optional and not) everywhere in the game.  As it is it's kind of pointless, but at least no one will get stuck.
I think there was a missed opportunity in the well, with this being the first time we're obligated to go back in time. I think the well should have had hookshot targets all over the place, just to tease us and make us wonder if we're playing wrong. Or there could have been heated rooms somewhere here, so that we'd need to get through very quickly and wish we had the Goron Tunic. They did put one treasure chest underwater, and that's something. (Though, it would have worked better if there were a hookshot target at the top of the water, Water Temple-style.) But I feel like emotionally, this ought to be more significant than it is. We've been growing up, and now we're back in a kid's body. Is this more comfortable, or is it limiting? The designers don't seem to have given it any thought, and the result is a section that would be no different if we played it as an adult.
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phisheep
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 07/29/11 at 04:00 AM | Reply with quote #19 |
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Ah, done at last. I found this place scary, satisfying and entirely disconcerting all at the same time. The back-story is a bit odd, this seems to be the basement of an old house that was built where the well is now by some old guy who stole the Lens of Truth, presumably from the Shadow Temple way back in the Sheikah past.
Some house it must have been. Even the basement (before it got infested by baddies) has a rather nice water feature, a swimming pool and what could function as an effective wine cellar. The way it is now seems the result of a lunatic madcap series of experiments to work out what could be done with the Lens. These must have been interesting experiments for sure - after all, what materials would you use to construct an invisible wall? I guess there must be some obscure breed of yak in the far deserts that secretes invisible milk which you can then process somehow to make bricks. And that's nothing compared to how you'd even start to think about constructing an invisible hole.
That's what makes it a disturbing place, the fact that things are not what they seem, that the usual expectation that our senses tell us more-or-less the truth about the world is thrown into doubt. Descartes would have had a field day with this dungeon. I fall through an invisible hole therefore I am.
Incidentally, how do you conceal a perfectly ordinary visible rupee inside an invisible chest? It's a place for doubting reality, and that spreads to doubting a lot more than just what you find in the well.
Unlike MoriartyL, I found that jolt to the senses, and to your expectations, compelling. For all that the lens is a one-trick pony, it is one heck of a trick.
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apoloimagod
Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 44
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 03:22 PM | Reply with quote #20 |
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| OK, this is the part where I was completely let down by this game. The whole thing here seems to be an instance of you needing to figure out what the designer was thinking. I beat the Water Temple, and get a message that from now on I may have to travel in time... but how? Nobody ever instructs me to go back to the Temple of Time (OK, yeah, it does sound kind of obvious, but still...). I go into Kakariko village and witness the shadow spirit leaving the well. Sheik tells me I must go to the Shadow Temple and teaches me the song...
I talk to the old man who tells me about the guy with the eye of truth, and the well... but still, my first reaction is to go to the Shadow Temple. But once I'm there, after I traverse a good part of the dungeon, solving some of the puzzles... I start getting references to needing the eye of truth (or something like that)... which obviously means I need something else to proceed here. At this point I'm very ticked off.
I know exactly that what I need is related to that well. I get out of the dungeon, go to the bottom of the well, but it's sealed... now what??? There is no indication anywhere (aside from the subtle hint that I need to travel in time) that the following course action should be talk to the guy in the wind mill, show him the ocarina, learn the song, travel back in time, play it on the mill to drain the well, and get to the bottom of the well! After a good 30 min. of not knowing what to do, I had to make use of the internet (which I HATE when a game forces me to do that) to figure this out.
I suppose with enough time I could have run into this solution, but it's just too contrived, with not enough hints to keep you going, which is the part that really put me off. I was THIS close to just quit playing the game... but here I am, moving on.
After that rant... I actually liked this mini-dungeon. Now I have the item I need and will be going next to the Shadow Temple!
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 03:49 PM | Reply with quote #21 |
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| Glad you decided to stick with it! I had some frustration finding this dungeon as well, as I think I mentioned earlier in the thread. I agree that it's not one of the best-signposted parts of the game, but in my opinion the payoff you get in both the Bottom of the Well and the Shadow Temple is worth it. |
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