brainygamer
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| Posted 06/19/11 at 11:26 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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Post your thoughts on the Lost Woods here.
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 06/21/11 at 10:48 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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| I actually ended up doing Lost Woods before Kakariko Village, since my game resumed in Kokiri Forest and Navi was bugging me to visit Saria anyway. I can't remember whether there is more to do here, but I learned Saria's Song and got the Heart Pieces from the target game and the Skull Kid ocarina-off. The Lost Woods theme is probably one of my favorite musical pieces in the game...cheerful, but also haunting. There's something very bewitching about the Skull Kids, too; they're both mischievous and somewhat tragic (obviously this mix of emotions becomes much more central in Majora's Mask). Also, I'm pretty sure the following-the-music sequence is the best of the series' increasingly tiresome approaches to the old "getting lost in a mysterious forest" cliche; going where the volume gets louder is natural and painless, plus it draws attention to the aforementioned fabulous soundtrack.
On a side note, one thing I can definitely say I'm going to get tired of is going back to Kokiri Forest every time I restart my game. The hub world isn't that big, but it's big enough to feel like you're wasting time going back to the same locations every time you start up. Last night I messed around the Lost Woods for about a half hour, headed up to Kakariko Village, and then realized it wasn't worth progressing any further; there was no way I was going to make substantial progress in Goron City in that sitting. So I guess it's back to Kokiri again. I have no real problems with the outdated graphics, the kind of clumsy 3D camera implementation, etc., but this is a genuinely annoying part of the design. |
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
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| Posted 06/21/11 at 10:54 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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There are shortcuts.
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DrZ
Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 25
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| Posted 06/21/11 at 10:55 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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I was about to say, the lost woods has shortcuts to at least the zora domain and goron city, which makes things easier...
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 06/21/11 at 11:13 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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| Yeah, I'm going to make sure the next time I sit down and play that I open up that shortcut from Goron City. I like the fact that Kokiri Forest is a "home" you actually return to - usually games establish a home and then give you absolutely no reason to come back - but I do wish there was an option to just pick up where I left off...especially in a portable version! |
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ironlord
Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 21
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| Posted 06/21/11 at 04:05 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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@thisyearsmodel I guess there's one benefit of playing the emulated version - I just kick in the save state and I'm where I left off 
This part reminded me the most of a traditional Legend of Zelda maze puzzle - if you don't pick the right directions, you get kicked out. However, I found I could go halfway down the "tunnel" and it would reveal what was in the next room - so you could sort of cheat.
Al. |
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TracyPoff
Registered: 06/19/11
Posts: 10
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| Posted 06/22/11 at 01:51 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Since the game brought me back to the Kokiri Forest when I started again, I took the opportunity to visit Saria as Navi had been bugging me to do. Did she just want to brag about how important we are? Anyway...
I liked how the 'background' music turned out to be diegetic. It's nice that the game asks the player to use hearing, as well as sight, to navigate. The Lost Woods has such an 'old-school' feel to it--a series of small rooms connected by tunnels. It really feels like a different world from the open space of Hyrule, disconnected from reality. It's a very nice atmosphere.
One unfortunate thing I noted: if you try playing the ocarina with the Skull Kid on your way through, the game will helpfully note "that's not Saria's song" even though she hasn't yet taught you her song. Since you can't play songs you don't know, there's nothing you can do yet, anyway, but it's unfortunate that the game slips and gives away the trick early. Better still if it didn't give away the trick at all, and you had to guess which song to play--it's not like it's that hard to figure out.
About Saria: she's quite interesting. At this point in the game, she's Link's friend, but she hasn't gone with him on his journey. Unusually for this kind of story, though, she isn't just forgotten. Ordinarily, when the hero leaves his hometown, there's nothing that really draws him back--any friends he had won't be such good friends as to care much about him when he returns. And, indeed, the others in the forest act either rude (in Mido's case) or somewhat indifferent to Link, with the exception of Saria. It's not too hard to imagine that Link would want to return home, if only for her. I know I complained earlier about Navi telling us to go see Saria, but that's because she shouldn't have needed to. Saria is link's friend, after all, not Navi's (unless there's more to the story than I know), so I wish that the game had found some other way to remind us that, indeed, Link isn't alone in the world.
As far as the actual business of getting to Saria went: I don't recall that anything stood out too much. Except for the attack by the Wolfos (which was a bit frightening, to be honest), I guess the trip was fairly forgettable.
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TylorWayne
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 06/23/11 at 11:39 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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The moments interacting with Saria always felt a bit special to me. Perhaps it was just the portrayal of innocent childhood friendship or perhaps it was the foreknowledge of what was to come but the connection between Link and Saria always felt the most genuine and sincere among the game's cast of characters.
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geno55
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 22
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| Posted 06/25/11 at 06:47 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by thisyearsmodel
Yeah, I'm going to make sure the next time I sit down and play that I open up that shortcut from Goron City. I like the fact that Kokiri Forest is a "home" you actually return to - usually games establish a home and then give you absolutely no reason to come back - but I do wish there was an option to just pick up where I left off...especially in a portable version!
I found the side-trek to the Lost Woods a little awkward. All of a sudden, Navi starts mentioning "what would Saria think if...?", and yet it seems that in all of my playthroughs, I end up going to Goron City before realizing that yes, you actually need to go see Saria first. I think it's the urgency of your main quest combined with Impa actually pointing you toward the direction of Death Mountain that makes this happen for me. I end up being slightly annoyed rather than feeling like I'm going home because I want to see familiar faces.
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shallow_depths
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 26
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| Posted 06/26/11 at 07:51 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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I also visited the Lost Woods before Goron City, on Navi's insistence, and felt similar awkwardness to geno55. It made more sense when I reached Goron City, found the reason for the song and opened up the shortcut back to Lost Woods.
Satisfying puzzle design shows you the puzzle before the solution. This is a surprisingly mixed-up section for a game with so many good puzzle design elements. I'm all in favour of returning to see a close friend, but when you've just been given a world-saving quest it seems pretty unlikely.
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 06/26/11 at 12:04 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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Quote: Originally posted by geno55:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who wishes for a save to save your position as well. It's a feature that when looked at through the eyes of modern gaming seems quaint now. I'm not asking for full "modernization", with things like quest logs or Oblivion-like fast travel, but just something to make things a little more as you say portable-friendly.
The crazy thing is, I'm also playing Link's Awakening (which came out in 1993 for Game Boy), and while I'm now able to use save states on 3DS Virtual Console, even the old battery-based save system picks you up from the last door you entered. An N64 game 5 years later not replicating that system feels like a pretty big step backwards... |
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brainygamer
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 524
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| Posted 06/26/11 at 12:51 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by thisyearsmodelQuote: Originally posted by geno55:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who wishes for a save to save your position as well. It's a feature that when looked at through the eyes of modern gaming seems quaint now. I'm not asking for full "modernization", with things like quest logs or Oblivion-like fast travel, but just something to make things a little more as you say portable-friendly.
The crazy thing is, I'm also playing Link's Awakening (which came out in 1993 for Game Boy), and while I'm now able to use save states on 3DS Virtual Console, even the old battery-based save system picks you up from the last door you entered. An N64 game 5 years later not replicating that system feels like a pretty big step backwards...
I've been playing Link's Awakening on the 3DS VC too, and I've gotta admit the purist in me has taken a backseat to the spoiled modern gamer. I've been using the heck out of that 3DS save state option. Wish the new Ocarina had an analogous option. Closing the lid is okay, but battery drain is a deal-breaker.
Wow, I've really gone soft, haven't I? 
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AndyC
Registered: 06/30/10
Posts: 51
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| Posted 06/27/11 at 02:33 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Quote: I've been playing Link's Awakening on the 3DS VC too, and I've gotta admit the purist in me has taken a backseat to the spoiled modern gamer. I've been using the heck out of that 3DS save state option. Wish the new Ocarina had an analogous option. Closing the lid is okay, but battery drain is a deal-breaker.
Wow, I've really gone soft, haven't I?
Like ironlord, since I am emulating on PC I have been using save state functionality the whole time so I haven't encountered how the game save system works as yet. I didn't know 3DS had saved state for its VC - that’s great (and something third party firmware/roms has provided on Nintendo portables for a long time now). I wouldn't say your soft Michael, if you’re like me I find that being a little older I tend to be somewhat time poor. Thus I like my gaming time to be fruitful. Trekking across areas that hold nothing new for me isn't that enjoyable.
Anyway back to the Lost Woods, after leaving the Castle I decided to explore the Hyrule Fields more thoroughly. I visited Lon Lon Ranch, found a secret or two, a song and some milk. The Field itself held a few surprises, a hole in the ground here and there etc.. but as a whole there wasn't too much to do, and some of the future areas were barred to me. So under the continually pestering of Navi (and since I was close to the entrance) I decided to revisit home and the adjoining Lost Woods to see my friend Saria. I enjoyed some of the off-hand remakes of the forest people, and appreciated a sense of cohesion in the personalities created for the various NPC's.
Now I already knew she would have a Song for me at some stage as I'd already been informed that I didn't yet know it from a forest person (Skull Kid) that I'd met earlier. Now like TracyPoff I agree that this is a little unfortunate as it did pre-seed the knowledge for me.
I went a little retro in the Lost Woods busting out some graph paper and proceeding to draw out the spaces, and items of note. I saw the shortcuts to other sections others mentioned (though they be barred), enjoyed a splash in a fairy pool, and generally found the use of music as a guide well done.
I'm happy to hear that this little part of my adventure will be needed for my future progress. If that is the case, I agree with others that it is unfortunate and probably not a seamless design choice as the game really does compel you to run off to Goron City, and it was only because I was being flippant that I ran around the field and ended up in the Lost Woods again. It really is the issue with linear progression when trying to present a non-linear world.
Also once again i didn't like the pulled back camera angle in the lead up the Sacred Meadows/Saria. As a design choice I (personally) find it jarring. |
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phisheep
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 06/28/11 at 03:20 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Seems like I'm not alone in finding the Saria/Goron sequence a bit odd. But this time round I went with Navi's suggestion, and it seemed fairly natural to want to go back to Kokiri and see her (after all, I've just been given a high-profile job that may keep me away some time, first thing I want to do is tell my girlfriend, yeah?). She claims to be in the 'usual place', but she's not at home and the only person who seems to know the spot is Mido - Mido! - hmmm. Has there been something between those two before? Maybe that's why he is so grumpy with me.
This is the first time I've played the Lost Woods with the sound on (first time round the kids were always asleep). It sure makes a difference. I wish that had been flagged in the original instructions, all this bit makes a lot more sense now and I got lost a lot less.
I'm sure there is lots more interesting stuff here, but the urgency of the quest is such that I really just want to see Saria and get back on the trail - the rest can, I hope, wait for a while.
Don't like Wolfos.
EDIT: I think what I mean is that the Saria/Goron sequence makes some good emotional sense, but probably isn't flagged up quite enough in the game. I do remember first time round getting dreadfully stuck in Goron City because of this. What I don't remember is whether this using the Ocarina to 'talk to Saria' ends up being any real use at all. Seems to me that whatever Saria's original functions were they have largely been taken over by Navi.
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 06/28/11 at 03:57 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by phisheep
She claims to be in the 'usual place', but she's not at home and the only person who seems to know the spot is Mido - Mido! - hmmm. Has there been something between those two before? Maybe that's why he is so grumpy with me.
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Becca
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Registered: 10/01/10
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| Posted 06/28/11 at 04:31 PM | Reply with quote #16 |
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| So I've just realized that this game has two original hint systems (Navi and Saria) and now a third with the 3DS (Gossip stone things). It definitely feels like overkill. Certainly it's been a long time since I didn't know what to do in this game, but I don't remember it being hard enough for all the hints.
I know that I basically never used to "call" Saria for help so I'm attempting to do it more this time just to see if she says anything interesting. Is anyone else making use of this feature? |
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 06/28/11 at 05:46 PM | Reply with quote #17 |
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Don't forget the owl! God forbid you should go ten paces without instruction. Though, of course, the newer Zelda games are much worse in this regard. In another thread somebody mentioned having faith in the game design. Well, it seems to me that the game design could have a little bit more faith in its players.
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phisheep
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 06/28/11 at 06:53 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by BeccaSo I've just realized that this game has two original hint systems (Navi and Saria) and now a third with the 3DS (Gossip stone things). It definitely feels like overkill. Certainly it's been a long time since I didn't know what to do in this game, but I don't remember it being hard enough for all the hints.
I know that I basically never used to "call" Saria for help so I'm attempting to do it more this time just to see if she says anything interesting. Is anyone else making use of this feature?
I do remember the game being dreadfully difficult even with all these tips, largely because there was very little about *how* to do things, and the new sheika stones seem a useful addition for those who don't want to have their noses in walkthroughs.
There are even more hints scattered around in the 3DS version in various places - in Impa's house in Kakariko, in the artwork on the walls of Goron City and so on. These are more technical-type things rather than plot things.
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Whistler
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 06/29/11 at 12:28 AM | Reply with quote #19 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Don't forget the owl! God forbid you should go ten paces without instruction. Though, of course, the newer Zelda games are much worse in this regard. In another thread somebody mentioned having faith in the game design. Well, it seems to me that the game design could have a little bit more faith in its players.
True, but the game is supposed to be designed so the 8-12 year-old crowd can get it, and especially if it's their first or third video game, it might be comforting to have all that help.
On the other hand... I really hate that owl. |
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 06/29/11 at 09:32 AM | Reply with quote #20 |
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| I've been ignoring the "hint stones" out of some kind of weird aging-gamer pride, even when it doesn't make sense. The other day I got frustrated trying to figure out what to do around Zora's Domain and ended up consulting a walkthrough; I really should have given the hint stones a try instead. Oh, well. I'll probably watch them for my Master Quest playthrough, just to see what they're like...personally I think it's a better/less intrusive method of helping the player than what was in the original game, and Iwata has said that this and similar systems for the recent Mario and Donkey Kong games have allowed them to make games more difficult without alienating younger or less experienced players. Seems like a win-win to me. |
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Becca
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Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 108
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| Posted 06/29/11 at 10:54 AM | Reply with quote #21 |
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| Yeah, I think I agree. The old methods (mostly the owl and Navi) are not as explicit always in their advice but impossible to ignore. The new hint stones are completely avoidable, but I assume give very detailed instructions. The help systems in Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Donkey Kong Country Returns basically play the game for you but you can choose not to use them at all. I think you are right, thisyearsmodel, that Nintendo has found better help system. |
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apoloimagod
Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 44
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| Posted 07/15/11 at 12:59 AM | Reply with quote #22 |
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| I had already spent some 10 min. at some point at the kokiri village looking for Saria before I moved on to Kakariko and then the Goron City... when the chief said he wanted another melody, I knew he meant Saria's (I knew she would give me a melody because this boy in the Lost Woods had asked about it).
So now I knew there was this Sacred Forest Meadow beyond the Lost Woods that I had to find. I had already solved most of the other puzzles during a previous visit to this forest (in particular the one involving the Ocarina).
The Meadow's puzzle was interesting, but very straightforward. Straightforward to find the way, but I got to Saria with a quarter of a heart after being hit repeatedly by those nut-throwing things (forgot what they're called).
In a way, to me, this section mirrored the Hyrule Castle section, you know, going through the puzzle to get to the damsel. The connection the hero makes with Saria here seems special, and I hope it plays an important role in the story.
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