AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 365
|
| Posted 04/05/09 at 05:01 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
|
So, anyone who goes to the End of Time can then fight the Big Bad...Lavros.
Anyone think he's a bit uninspired? I started the fight with it and it didn't say anything (there's not real good thread to discuss this except maybe the "end level" one, but I feel it's important to bring up).
Basically, there is no connection to this monster. I'm given no real reason to do anything about it - by 1100AD everything is still fine, Crono, me, will be dead and have lived a perfectly happy life I'm sure. Just why should I do something that, as I find out in later levels, was brought upon humanity almost by humanity (in the magic era).
While you don't "meet" many of the bosses or have them last more then a few levels, I've had fun seeing some beforehand, or see them before fighting them (or fighting them more then once) - Ozzie and the dinosaur king were two major ones. Lavros just seems as fun as a meteor, as personal as a sun exploding, or as connecting as magic going to "blow up the universe". You might as well tell me to find a way to destroy any of these (in fact, I've not seen much in the way of the story pushing a way to "defeat Lavros" at all, just randomly going through time doing things...for no real apparant reason, but vaguely "stopping Magus" or "finding someone to help").
I mean, why does Lavros even want to destroy the planet? why does it? :/
It's a big letdown in an otherwise great set of mini-stories, mini-arcs of plot which actually has some connection to the player or at least the people the player meets. A world-consuming (or is that "time and space consuming?" since time ends?) entity there seemingly "just because" (no one even called it right?) - unlike almost all the other enemies seems a cheap cop out.
Maybe if I play the rest of the game it'll be made more involved, but I somehow doubt it. I'm at the magic kingdom bit right now, so I'll see, since this is an area heavily involved in the whole Lavros thing. More thoughts on this, and if isn't just an excuse for a massive end-of-game-boss would be welcome. I'm not convinced though - and JRPG's usually have at least memorable persistent enemies and end of game bosses!
__________________
Andrew |
| Loading... | |
sharc
Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 81
|
| Posted 04/05/09 at 06:39 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
|
oh man, don't tell me they translate it as "lavros"
you're skipping to the end of the game too early, by the way. the bucket at the end of time is suicide for most of your first playthrough, and you don't learn much about lavos itself or get in a position to fight it until finishing up in the zeal era.
most jrpgs run into a problem; they spend the whole game building up an antagonist character, and then reach a point where a single human could never realistically be a match for your party of god-slaying super warriors. so, the villain pulls a fast one - they either reveal some stories-tall alternate form, or wind up revealing an even higher, more evil power at the last second. so i actually like that chrono trigger cuts right to it, with the main antagonist known to be be a planet-destroying lovecraftian horror from space right at the start. it's still going with the "earth is in peril" cliche, although it does a substantially better job of justifying it. think about it; most jrpgs wind up with a single person who wants to destroy the world (for reasons that are often painfully dumb), generally by using some spell or device with the power to do it (how and why the hell would anyone ever make such a thing). if you're going to use a plot where the entire world is in danger - and at the time, this was pretty much a certainty - how exactly do you justify such a threat?
Quote: Originally Posted by andrewarmstrong
I mean, why does Lavros even want to destroy the planet? why does it? :/
that's just what it does, man. eats planets and harvests their lifeforms to produce superior offspring. it can't be talked to because it's an alien being; it can't be reasoned with because its motive is pure survival. the closest thing lavos has to a mouthpiece is the queen, and, well. you see what it does to her.
i will say that i wish the effects of exposure to lavos were played up more, because outside of people who use the mammon machine nobody comes away with any psychological harm done, and pretty much none of the characters seem appropriately scared of the thing. |
| Loading... | |
danbruno
Moderator
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 155
|
| Posted 04/05/09 at 10:48 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
|
| You will find out more about Lavos if you finish the story. Chrono Trigger is set up such that you can fight him before you're "ready" because of the New Game+ feature. |
| Loading... | |
Nelson
Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 95
|
| Posted 04/05/09 at 11:08 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
|
I really like that I can see the Big Bad well before the final time. Get a sense of the battle ahead of me. I also tried the fight once and it appears that he's a pastiche of all the bosses I'm fighting as I make my way through the story. That gives me an incentive to pay attention during every single boss fight.
|
| Loading... | |
DoubleDracula
Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 31
|
| Posted 04/07/09 at 08:46 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
|
If only it were that complicated! You can power through him just as well as you can power through almost any other boss in the game. There's almost nothing complicated about him aside from the occasional death of one of the people you're with.
I think the most fun you can have is trying to solo him with just crono almost immediately after beginning a new game +
Just remember to equip yourself with your good gear! |
| Loading... | |
grobstein
Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 59
|
| Posted 04/07/09 at 02:27 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
|
There is little reason to attempt Lavos the first opportunity you get. That's okay because there's no need to attempt him at the first opportunity.
|
| Loading... | |
AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 365
|
| Posted 04/08/09 at 06:07 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
|
The mechanics about fighting him whenever (for whatever ending) fair enough, but it being a faceless "world eater" is a bit dumb, considering people hold this game up as a pinnacle of sorts in JRPG storytelling.
I guess they just needed to put a face to a "natural disaster". As I play more it seems, more and more, this Lavros could be replaced by a "force of nature" defeated by whatever plot device you get - but you then don't have the big boss fight at the end to do.
I'm much more interested in the story side then the mechanical side though. I've not skipped any of the game - I looked at fighting Lavros, but said "Meh" since I never would have enough patience at a low level.
It is interesting though how they need to do this. The problem is they reveal this "force" very early - within the first hour if you're quick enough - and that eclipses Magus and other bosses, the other plot elements and, in fact, a lot of the sense of it (the whole "Lavros is there to destroy the humans" is, quite quite insane if it can't be communicated with), and as you said sharc - no one really feels endangered by it, even those who have been past the "Day of Lavros", or involved with the magic side.
There must be a personality there, and it could be put forwards as part of the story. Master manipulator, some influence through the minds of others, whatever...the poor end boss just gets an appearance as a menacing force when, I am sure, there are some reasons for destroying a planet so carefully (there seemingly are plans after all!).
A bit off on a tangent: I also wonder, what's it's gender?  (Is it ever referred to as a He or She? the procreation thing seems a bit of an odd reason) I guess the game hasn't got anything that only works on a certain gender - I mean, even Alya's kiss works on herself (somehow), heh.
__________________
Andrew |
| Loading... | |
Nelson
Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 95
|
| Posted 04/08/09 at 10:03 AM | Reply with quote #8 |
|
Quote: I guess they just needed to put a face to a "natural disaster".
Oh, like the way Godzilla is the embodiment of the nuclear bomb?
I like how our big enemy is an impersonal force. I've never found big bad RPG bosses to be very compelling, I don't need to know their psychology or backstory or procreative desires (!). When was the last time you found a really compelling story for an evil endgame boss?
|
| Loading... | |
LAVOS
Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 1
|
| Posted 04/08/09 at 11:01 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
|
GREETING PATHETIC HUMANS
DOES ONE AMONG YOU DARE CHALLENGE THE UNQUESTIONED MASTERY OF LAVOS
LAVOS HAS OBSERVED YOUR SPECIES FOR THE IMPERCEPTIBALE SLIVER OF TIME THAT THEY HAVE EXISTED
HUMANITY COULD NOT EVEN ASPIRE TO AMUSE LAVOS WITH THEIR INSIPID WARBLINGS
SUCH INSOLENCE MUST BE PUNISHED ALTHOUGH LAVOS CANNOT TELL ONE TIMEBOUND FLESH PILE FROM ANOTHER
LAVOS CONCLUDES THE MOST APPROPRIATE RESPONSE IS FINDING YOUR PLANET AND THEN EATING IT
HOLD ON A GROUP OF CHILDREN APPROACH LAVOS'S FRONT DOOR
LAVOS WILL SEE WHAT THEY WANT
|
| Loading... | |
AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 365
|
| Posted 04/08/09 at 12:10 PM | Reply with quote #10 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Nelson
I like how our big enemy is an impersonal force. I've never found big bad RPG bosses to be very compelling, I don't need to know their psychology or backstory or procreative desires (!). When was the last time you found a really compelling story for an evil endgame boss?
I guess, it's different for different people. I personally enjoyed Irenicus' story, even though it wasn't directly related to the protagonist, in Baldur's Gate II. Compelling drama. Fallout also had a compelling array of characters - a living world like that really works as "antagonist" - you are fighting the environment as well as the people in it!
Sometimes the best "end game bosses" are those who are actually quite minimal too, not world-destroying monsters. Don't get them very often though.
I'll also check my spelling in the future - sorry for saying Lavros so much. Lavos it is I guess Silly names when I turn off the game I forget them! (See how forgettable it is? ).
hehe @ LAVOS
__________________
Andrew |
| Loading... | |
Nelson
Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 95
|
| Posted 04/09/09 at 12:40 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
|
Quote: I'll also check my spelling in the future - sorry for saying Lavros so much
It's a safe bet everyone's name is 5 characters long. We're playing Crono Trigger, afterall.
|
| Loading... | |
AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 365
|
| Posted 04/11/09 at 02:15 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
|
I just "love" the silly way they did their engines like that, it was pretty dire that this game came out so late (the SNES!) and still had that kind of problem.
__________________
Andrew |
| Loading... | |
gatotsu911
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 13
|
| Posted 07/05/10 at 06:37 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
|
I'm with Nelson on this one, I like that the ultimate enemy is a faceless force beyond human understanding, rather than an ordinary human who's just a douchebag. In some ways it's a lot more intimidating than any number of Kefkas and Sephiroths. I liked the same thing (to a lesser extent) about Sin in Final Fantasy X. The "identity" of Lavos gets fleshed out infinitesimally more in the sequel, though, if you're interested, including some vague references to "his" sexuality.
|
| Loading... | |
