davidcarlton
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Registered: 07/15/08
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| Posted 01/21/09 at 12:03 AM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| Please post your thoughts on the portion of the game between Black Isle and the factory here. |
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crimsonclone
Registered: 09/02/08
Posts: 156
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| Posted 02/01/09 at 08:33 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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I get the feeling a good number of people made it to this section already so I'll start off.
There is a nice vibe of movement in the city which makes it feel bigger then it really is. It's a nice touch that every NPC wandering around has a unique 'how are you' dialog response (although the Iris code response is a bit more problematic which I'll get to). There are also a nice number of distractions, oddly enough the disk game worked great with a mouse which after the hovercraft was amazing. The conveyer belt incinerator puzzle was an interesting moment (not sure if its forshadowing or just a sidequest), I liked that the beam jumping was very user friendly and didn't require that much precision.
Then there is the Iris network. One has to wonder by this point why exactly the Alpha Sections are so renowned in this world (pirate insignia and all) if the good people in the Iris network are so committed to exposing the truth. The first warning bell went off when after the warnings about the need for secrecy and the code names the Iris network is perfectly cool with photography of their personnel in the secret headquarters. This struck me as fairly odd. The second moment came when in Ming-Tzu's shop when after giving the Iris network password I recieved access to previous Iris network 'reports'. By reports these were basicly short powerpoints whose idea of persuation is adding exclamation marks to the end of every sentence. So I decided okay, I wonder what happens if I ask people on the street the Iris password. It turns out around 2/3 of the populous knows what the Iris password and a good number consider the Iris Network as terrorists. So a thought here, if basicly everyone knows the password and the code to enter the Iris command center is obtained through a ball and cup game then how on earth are these guys still around. No wonder they need Jade, the Iris Network is composed of morons. Either that or the Alpha Sections and the Iris network are one and the same. I'm I expecting too much here?
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Kimari
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 43
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| Posted 02/01/09 at 10:46 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Ah yes, the IRIS network. Don't even bother. Later in the game (I couldn't stop myself from playing) it makes even LESS sense.
For me, there is no secrecy. If you only need a password to get access to everything, including the super secret hide-out, then your network won't last very long. I'm even more surprised that... well, let's just say that the enemy could very easily question and torture people without anyone becoming suspicios. It would only take minutes to find the password if they ever cared about it.
But I suppose you can say that "they" don't take the IRIS network seriously, after all, what did IRIS do before Jade came along? Apart from spam, nothing, that's what. (Later on this stops being a plausible excuse though)
Having said that, I'm here for the ride and I don't try to make sense of everything, even if there are some glaring plot-holes. It's just too compelling to play as Jade. As long as there are animals around to photograph, I'll be happy.
Quick question: At some point, is the whole deal with the pearls explained? What are those things anyway? I just want to know that further on there's at least an attempt to explain the odd currency. The same goes for the weird purple crystals, but I'm guessing that those aren't even mentioned again after their introduction in Black Isle.
Oh, and PROPAGANDA.
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Freezair
Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 40
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| Posted 02/02/09 at 12:31 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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I never tried to make sense of it, myself. I imagine it all comes down to a cross between "rule of fun" (hunting down the man with the blue rosette to get an encrypted message which you have to draw up your own matricies to decode would be a heck of a lot less fun then "give the password to the dude and get into the action") and "rule of perception," which is a pretty common thing in fiction in general: What you see/play isn't necessarily what "actually happened." But THAT veers into "literary agent theory" territory, and lord knows people harp on enough about that. I just go with the flow. When you think about it, a lot of stories concerning spies, espionage, or anything involving a certain need for secrecy doesn't really do a very good job of depicting that, probably because it isn't very interesting. What would you rather read about/see/play, a spy wandering about a base acting like a normal worker, or secret passwords, hidden rooms, and other exciting things like that? Kind of like how CSI is a terrible depiction of actual forensic work, but good entertainment.
In part, it's because I feel (as was mentioned on the main site) that BG&E is a character-driven game, not a plot-driven one. I'll accept odd plot holes if the characters are believable and strong, but an intricate, wonderful plot is nothing if the cast is flatter than day-old root beer. IRIS may be "silly," but I think they serve their greater overall purpose--both giving Jade a temporary drive and helping to set in motion both what I would argue is her real motivation (helping the world is probably secondary in her mind to helping her uncle), and setting her up in meeting Protagonist #3, Double H. While the relationship between Jade and Pey'j is certainly more charming, I think the relationship between Jade and Double H is more interesting, in particular because it legitimately evolves. But I'll save THAT discussion for the Factory and beyond. 
Of the game itself. That conveyer-belt-incinerator puzzle is probably my least favorite sidequesty/side area-y bit in the game, for the simple reason that, even after playing through it a number of times, I STILL find it too easy to get caught going in circles. My first time in there, I think I wandered around in circles for a good fifteen minutes before I realized that I wasn't going anywhere. There is one thing I do find strange about it. The cases are foreshadowing, and said foreshadowing gets explained in the next dungeon. However, if you wait until after that dungeon, Jade's still confused by them! Or did you have your eyes closed all through it? Thankfully, the later areas in the town are a LOT more fun, and one in particular stands out as just a gorgeous piece of level design--both atmospheric AND functional, and it made me sweat the first time though.
I always buy the Super Attack Upgrade at Ming-Tzu's, and then I always forget I have it and never use it. Which is a shame, because some enemies are MUCH easier if you use it.
How many people are doing the little sidequesty bits outside of the city? There's a tiny cave just outside the main gate that I always seem to forget about. You can get in it once Pey'j has a wrench, but it's easy to glide over. And there are those blasted Looter's Caverns... Always a pain in the behind. So... many... bombs! Thank goodness the actual hovercraft races don't have those.
Just a bit, man!
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davidcarlton
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| Posted 02/02/09 at 02:17 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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I really enjoyed this section. Compared to most adventure games, the world here is quite small, but it's very densely packed with stuff to do, and a good range of varieties of stuff: plot advancement, new items, races, a couple of minigames, a tricky navigation bit, an environmental navigation puzzle area, a fight. That adds up to about as much to do as you'd find in a Zelda game, but without the same wandering around to get from place to place.
I also approve of their giving you access to the animal and pearl detectors quite early on. It means that there's not quite the same feeling of sticking your nose in every cranny trying to discover everything, but the flip side is that I get to see things that I wouldn't have seen otherwise and don't have to worry that I'm searching fruitlessly, and on the whole that's a good tradeoff. And certainly not without precedent: to go back to Zelda, I'm very glad that series's dungeons have the compass in them, and all that BGE does is extend that idea to the whole game. Plus, it's optional: if you want to try to find every animal without help, you can.
I would actually be worried that I've used up most of the city experiences, that maybe I should have left some of what I did this time to after the later dungeons. But there are enough pearls showing in the detector and enough doors that I don't have the key to that I'm pretty sure that I'll continue to have my hands full as I get access to more of the city.
I'm curious, is it possible to get the hovercraft parts out of order? It seems like I probably could have gotten enough pearls to buy the next part instead of the homing missile. |
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Freezair
Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 40
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| Posted 02/02/09 at 02:56 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Yes and no.
Is it possible to get the Hovercraft parts out of order? Yes. Was this intended? No. Do you have to exploit a minor but not un-findable bug to do this? You betcha!
Basically, it involves using wonky collision detection in part of the City to access a particular area before you have the key, which allows you to get one pearl "too early." Doing so, and getting all the other pearls possible up to that point, gives you just enough to get the next part. However, doing this isn't really recommended on the file you're trying to beat the game with, since it causes a lot of weird stuff to happen, both minor (like the Looter's Caverns being completely silent in terms of sound effects--there is still music) and what-the-heck-just-happened (You see one character on screen, but you hear another's voice! Trying to get to certain places causes freezing! Getting story-based e-mails out of order!). However, it's fun to play around with on a second, bug-me-up-to-your-heart's-content file.
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 02/02/09 at 11:36 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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In this section we begin Act 2 of the story. Everything up to this point was set-up: Who Jade is, what the situation is on this world, the relationship between Jade and Pey'j. Now we get into the meat of the plot, about trying to overthrow the government.
All the members of IRIS are given names, as though we're supposed to care. I don't know why anyone would. Much like the lighthouse kids, they've got no effect on gameplay whatsoever, so we never feel any connection to any of them. If all the members of IRIS were caught and killed, and all that was left was Jade herself, I don't think any player would shed a tear. The story would go on exactly as it is going on, but without all these damn cutscenes. These guys have nice character designs, to be sure. But a nice look does not a good character make, especially in a game like this. There is only one person in that room we care about even the tiniest bit, and that's Jade.
Side characters just don't work like that in games like this ("metaludes" which contain multiple gameplays). You can't make a pretty face, give him some voice acting, stick him prominently in some cutscenes, and call it a day. In that case you're wasting the player's time even introducing him. It's a film sensibility, and it doesn't work when the story is so interactive. If you're going to have a character, something about his character needs to come through in gameplay. And if nothing about his character comes through in gameplay, you shouldn't have the character. That's my opinion.
If we actually interactively followed Peepers down some dark secret passage and waited for him to write in the code, he'd feel like the guy who's your link to this shady side of the world. As it is, he's a guy who pushes bowls around.
If Hahn gave continuous evaluation of the player's work ("I don't think we're seeing enough. Could you zoom out a little?"; "This isn't entirely clear, but I guess it'll do."), he'd feel like your boss. As it is, he feels like an exposition device.
If the other members of IRIS were wandering around town with cover stories, trying to get the Alpha Sections off your back, maybe making excuses for you, then they'd be the ones who've been there longer than you and whom you need to rely on. As it stands, they barely exist.
I agree with Kimari that being able to say the password to random people (who then know what you're talking about) was a mistake. I understand that they're trying to create more topics for dialogue, but a simple "So, those IRIS guys, huh?" would be more appropriate. Saying the password to anyone who'll listen undermines the whole feeling that this is an underground group.
So, yeah. Lots of missteps here, most of them attributable to Ancel's using cutscenes so much that he doesn't notice when there's something missing. But the point is to lead us quickly into the second dungeon, which will be really cool.
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 02/02/09 at 12:27 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Oh, I forgot to call attention to the new hovercraft-cannon's similarity to the on-land "super attack". As I pointed out before, they're really bending over backwards to make the hovercraft movement feel like Jade's regular movement, and this isn't the last step in that direction they're going to take.
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crimsonclone
Registered: 09/02/08
Posts: 156
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| Posted 02/02/09 at 08:01 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kimari
Ah yes, the IRIS network. Don't even bother. Later in the game (I couldn't stop myself from playing) it makes even LESS sense.
For me, there is no secrecy. If you only need a password to get access to everything, including the super secret hide-out, then your network won't last very long. I'm even more surprised that... well, let's just say that the enemy could very easily question and torture people without anyone becoming suspicios. It would only take minutes to find the password if they ever cared about it.
Gotcha. Last night I reached a point where the Iris network in relation to the world got even more absurd so I guess best to stop overthinking things and go along for the ride.
Quote: Originally Posted by MoriartyL
All the members of IRIS are given names, as though we're supposed to care. I don't know why anyone would. Much like the lighthouse kids, they've got no effect on gameplay whatsoever, so we never feel any connection to any of them. If all the members of IRIS were caught and killed, and all that was left was Jade herself, I don't think any player would shed a tear. The story would go on exactly as it is going on, but without all these damn cutscenes. These guys have nice character designs, to be sure. But a nice look does not a good character make, especially in a game like this. There is only one person in that room we care about even the tiniest bit, and that's Jade.
I think a key difference between the lighthouse kids and Iris is Iris asks Jade to throw herself into dangerous situations but fails to provide any meaningful aid or even a basic talking voice. Add to that the Iris command center is staffed with what seems like the only people on Hillys Jade doesn't know and as such there a lack of an predefined emotional link with the Iris people. The lighthouse children at least get some characterization with Jade. I'm in agreement Iris needed to be doing something as opposed to waiting around for Jade to work her magic.
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crimsonclone
Registered: 09/02/08
Posts: 156
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| Posted 02/03/09 at 01:18 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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While I'm thinking of it, props to the race sections for being fairly decent despite being a minigame and especially considering the history of other games that attempted to shoehorn in a racing minigame because they could (Kotor, Chrono Trigger, and Freelancer come to mind although I know there are plenty others). Pity though that they didn't implement a knitting minigame and I guess 'you have three seconds to get back to exposing a threat that endangers all life on this planet' just doesn't have the same ring to it.
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sparky
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 167
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| Posted 02/03/09 at 01:19 AM | Reply with quote #11 |
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Even if I agreed with the proposition that characters not in gameplay are a waste of time I might not think that applies to all the IRIS folks. Mei and Nino are pretty regularly in your ear during missions, even if their only purpose is to justify the markings on the level map or relay information from other characters. This is a small role, to be sure, but they never vanish entirely.
But I think approving characters purely based on their gameplay contribution is a misguided approach. I said in another thread that one of this game's major themes is the power of collective action, and in that view a personal context is required. Yes, every single thing that Mei and Nino do for the character could be accomplished by Hahn (or disembodied robot voice #77834), and if we're maximizing our character efficiency there's no need for Jade to ever visit the hideout and experience all that corny dialogue. However, I think that would work against this core idea of the game, which requires that the network be staffed with people for Jade to meet and form a relationship with, even if the player does not. I agree that it would be nice for them to do more, of course, but I think their chief function is to provide personal context for the IRIS activities, which they do well enough.
All that aside, this part of the game rewards a player's willingness to seek out as much as he can find. Pey'j's exclamations during the races are great, and the races themselves are surprisingly fun and well-made even though they're not particularly challenging. The looter's caverns are also well designed, if completely ridiculous -- if the Alpha Sections used as much security as these guys you'd never get near the Nutripils factory.
One nice thing about the town is that the characters aren't all talking to Jade. We generally meet them as they're talking to each other, which gives it more of a feel of an actual city with people whose lives initially have nothing to do with Jade's. We also get introduced to the Hillyan army regulars. One of them brushes off your inquiries with a statement that the army doesn't have a 'pixies' unit, proving that this world still has some male chauvinism kicking around. It's not a perfect paradise full of wonderful people. Some Hillyans are drinking themselves to death, some are pretty nasty, and most of them seem to accept that ghoulish rambling from the man on the TV as gospel.
For me the weakest part of this segment comes in the fight outside Mammago's right after you receive the cannon. Tiny DomZ ships of indifferent design that you never see again zip around overhead, totally unthreatened, as it is essentially impossible to shoot them. Only compass mode affords the slightest chance of a successful attack and even then your inability to look up makes the whole event a frustrating mess. The ships don't seem to threaten you either; it's difficult to tell what they're doing other than flying around to the sound of battle music. The only good thing about this is that it ends automatically after a while even if you don't shoot a thing.
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Freezair
Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 40
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| Posted 02/03/09 at 02:34 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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I've heard that that weird little non-fight with the DomZ ships is actually a result of the cuts made to the game to get it to release on time. The game was initially supposed to be much longer (the current final dungeon was supposed to have more stuff beyond it, for example), but various cuts had to be made to get it finished (it had already been in a very mild devhell before that). There's other evidence of this later in the game, but that's one of the earlier, more obvious examples.
I do love the hovercraft races, though. Not only are they a neat little mini-game that handles fairly slickly for being--well, a mini-game, but they're a laugh riot. First there's the wackiness of your obviously not-up-to-snuff, literal hovercraft racing against all the futuristic "hovercrafts" that actually have some kind of antigrav going on, the race announcer (BACK TO YOUR KNIIIIIITIIIIIING), and Pey'j's utter insanity. FAJITAAASSS!
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MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 295
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| Posted 02/03/09 at 11:55 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by sparky
I think that would work against this core idea of the game, which requires that the network be staffed with people for Jade to meet and form a relationship with, even if the player does not.
To be clear, I don't believe a game this ambitious narratively has ever been created without such cheats. I think this game is the high-point of interactive storytelling (of this type) so far. So I guess what I'm saying is, this isn't the end of the road. There's lots of room for artistic improvement for the sequel, and more importantly for other games which follow in BG&E's footsteps.
As for the non-battle battle, I think it works artistically even like this. It reminds you that the DomZ are a constant threat, not just something that comes once and then leaves you alone. If the only DomZ attacks were in Act 1, by Act 3 we'd wonder why anyone could be convinced to stand up against them. The fact that the battle is unclear, even if it was because of production problems, adds an element of uncertainty and panic. Which doesn't take anything at all away from the emotion of the moment.
By the way, am I the only one who can't stand the voices and music of the races? As soon as I enter a race I mute the TV- I find it preserves my sanity.
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sparky
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 167
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| Posted 02/03/09 at 08:16 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by MoriartyL
As for the non-battle battle, I think it works artistically even like this. It reminds you that the DomZ are a constant threat, not just something that comes once and then leaves you alone. If the only DomZ attacks were in Act 1, by Act 3 we'd wonder why anyone could be convinced to stand up against them. The fact that the battle is unclear, even if it was because of production problems, adds an element of uncertainty and panic. Which doesn't take anything at all away from the emotion of the moment.
I think the total absence of danger in that 'battle', and the fact that the player can choose to completely ignore it, makes it pretty worthless in this respect. It reminds the player that the DomZ exist, to be sure, but the still-smoking buildings and regular appearances of the DomZ in the dungeons communicate this more effectively. The impotence on both sides of this engagement works against any effect it might have in terms of playing them up as a threat, and it exists pretty uncomfortably with the later sequences that involve armadas of small, fast-responding fighters. Since it also doesn't do a very good job of teaching you how to use the lock-on system effectively, this was a late addition the game probably would have been better off without.
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Amoveo
Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 68
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| Posted 02/05/09 at 12:09 AM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: Then there is the Iris network. One has to wonder by this point why exactly the Alpha Sections are so renowned in this world (pirate insignia and all) if the good people in the Iris network are so committed to exposing the truth. The first warning bell went off when after the warnings about the need for secrecy and the code names the Iris network is perfectly cool with photography of their personnel in the secret headquarters. This struck me as fairly odd. The second moment came when in Ming-Tzu's shop when after giving the Iris network password I recieved access to previous Iris network 'reports'. By reports these were basicly short powerpoints whose idea of persuation is adding exclamation marks to the end of every sentence. So I decided okay, I wonder what happens if I ask people on the street the Iris password. It turns out around 2/3 of the populous knows what the Iris password and a good number consider the Iris Network as terrorists. So a thought here, if basicly everyone knows the password and the code to enter the Iris command center is obtained through a ball and cup game then how on earth are these guys still around. No wonder they need Jade, the Iris Network is composed of morons. Either that or the Alpha Sections and the Iris network are one and the same. I'm I expecting too much here?
I think the explanation for this is that the "password" is more of a motto. And its not secret because the real secret is who is actually a member of IRIS. You passed the test in Black Isles so they told you to talk to Peepers. Now that is the secret. No one else knows that Peepers is a member of IRIS and thus they can't pressure him. He's just the weird guy with the ball game.
Now sure there is a lot more they could have done to make the game tenser. Domz attacks could be more dangerous and seem wider in scope, the Alpha section could be visibly cracking down questioning people about IRIS, and IRIS could be actively covering you or helping you in some way. But I think that feeling of safety is a consequence of the game design. This is an easy game and its tricky to make an easy game feel intimidating.
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Kimari
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 43
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| Posted 02/05/09 at 03:16 AM | Reply with quote #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Amoveo
This is an easy game and its tricky to make an easy game feel intimidating.
I wouldn't say it's easy... neither hard. The difficulty curve is on average fairly low, the problem is that (for me) Beyond Good & Evil is riddled with difficulty spikes on the stealth sections and the final boss.
I can't help but feel that BGE would have been much better off if it had adjustable difficulty. At least that way I wouldn't have had to repeat the same freaking room 30 times due to stupidly difficult level design/enemy placement. That and the ... odd final battle, but I won't comment on that here =)
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Amoveo
Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 68
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| Posted 02/05/09 at 03:38 AM | Reply with quote #17 |
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Perhaps I'm jumping the gun a bit here or maybe I'm just good at this game, but I've completed the Slaughterhouse and I'd say that there hasn't been any significant challenge yet.
I was referring to the fact that Domz invasions are infrequent and fairly easy to deal with. There's one big snake thing and you keep shooting it until it dies. It was interesting to fight, but it didn't instill in me a feeling of "The world is ending help me Alpha Sector! I don't care if you're intimidating and faceless I need someone to protect me." I felt more like "oh look a miniboss." Maybe I'm just jaded to giant monsters, but the Domz attacks (apart from the immediate intro one) felt underwhelming. Have pods spashing in the water, destroy a few innocent fishing boats. It felt like I had the safety on when fighting those bosses. And game is very forgiving when it comes to being caught. They seem to forget you were ever there even though they saw you run around the corner 5 seconds ago. The difficulty is ramping up (although I suppose this discussion should go in another section) but I feel fairly confident saying this is an easy game. I haven't finished it yet though so I may be wrong. Lets save this discussion for later threads though (if only I had thought to say that BEFORE I typed out this elaborate response.)
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Kimari
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 43
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| Posted 02/05/09 at 08:20 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
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I would say that only after the factory the game presents you with random giant jumps in the difficulty curve.
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CrashT
Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 327
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| Posted 02/06/09 at 06:21 PM | Reply with quote #19 |
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I really enjoyed telling the "password" to different people to see who exactly was involved with the IRIS network. Finding one of the Rhino's at Mammago's was an IRIS support brought a smile to my face for some reason. I agree with Amoveo, I don't think it's really a password so much as a slogan, the kind of thing they'd use as a tag line in their newspaper.
If you pay attention to the cut-scenes there's actually quite a bit of character information given away. You are told that Peepers recommended you to Hahn which explains why he'd be willing to let you in. It's old-school security: a guy on the door "If you're name's not down, you're not coming in!"
Another thing you can pick up from that cut-scene is that Mei seems to have some sort of relationship with Double H given the way she reacts when he is mentioned.
I picked up on these things so left the IRIS headquarters with an emotional connection to Peepers and Mei (And through her Double H). I had to prove I was worthy of the recommendation of the former, and try and find Double H for the benefit of the latter. That's why Ancel uses cut-scenes because they work. If you're immediate reaction is "oh look another cut-scene" then you're likely going to miss the subtle clues they use and so come away feeling it was a waste of your time watching it.
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