brainygamer
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Posted 07/15/08
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#1
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Post your comments on chapter 1 here.
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brainygamer
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Posted 07/21/08
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#2
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Well, I'll get this party started by noting the voice acting in this game. It's the first thing that really leaps out at me (aside from the overall stylishness of the opening).
My first thought listening to Manny with the client in his office was an immediate flash to Psychonauts, which is obviously another Tim Schafer design. I'm guessing we might get around to comparing these two games at some point, but for now, I'm finding myself absolutely loving the quality of the vocal characterizations in ways I haven't in any game since Psychonauts.
Given that the vocal work is so good (and varied and professionally delivered), I'm especially grateful for the depth of the conversation trees. The game rewards digging through these, and the first encounter with Eva the secretary is a great example. You can obviously zip through these, extracting only the stuff you need to progress. But oh, the good stuff you'll miss! 
The games I've played with genuine flashes of clever, sardonic wit are sadly few and far between. So far, Grim Fandango is putting on a clinic for how to do that well, with voice actors up to the task of delivering Schafer's signature dialogue.
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davidwhitney
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 2
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Posted 07/21/08
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#3
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[Obviously full of spoilers]
The first thing that hit me was how good the soundtrack still is. They nailed it at the time and it just conveys so much swank and swagger, wonderful, especially when combined with the cinematic nature of the opening.
Past that, I'm very impressed at how the visuals really haven't aged. I was playing using the software renderer (for some very random reasons) and was impressed at how well it actually held up, especially seeing as nobody bothers trying to write software rendering modes anymore, I found this most impressive.
The backgrounds are still beautiful, but a had a sly thought back to the old Microsoft 3d Movie Maker "look" that games like little big adventure had in the early to mid 90s. GF looks significantly better than the other games of it's era that used a similar static 3d render for backgrounds (with the exception of the fourth Monkey Island, which was an evolution of the Grim engine anyway).
The visual style of the characters pretty much pioneered the "cell shaded thus timeless" feel by using the limitations of the technology as an advantage (something later notably repeated by World of Warcraft).
You hit the nail on the head with the dialogue, brilliant voice acting and well thought out trees. I enjoyed the blatant flirting with Eva and bluntness with Domino. Eva’s dialogue is a highpoint for the opening section in my mind, little throwbacks to common mundane business scenarios ("Servers down again") really play up the parody well (the machine operator mumbling "good enough for government work" down in the basement also raised a wry smile along with the boss' abbreviation of number nine ticket to a "double n".)
I suffered a little from knowing all of puzzles in the first part of year one far too well, in that I spent the run up to the Petrified Forest dreading it. Back in 98 I remember hating the stupid sign puzzle and the wobbling electronic tree. Thankfully neither were anywhere near as annoying as I remembered (and I've played through a few times since then) and I ended up in Rubacava.
High point of the first year? Manny commenting that he thought Glotis' mechanical revamps weren't quite ostentatious enough!
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Tonks
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 27
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Posted 07/21/08
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#4
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i have to echo the thoughts on the voice acting, simply wonderful stuff - it reminded me more of a full fledged cartoon than a video game, i still dont think many games today have quite got there voice talent to match up well with the look/movements of the on screen characters.
Once this club made me think about Grim Fandango and Tim Schafer i had the sudden urge to try psychonauts, by then end of the opening sequence the voice work was in my head, does this apply to monkey island. day of the tentacle etc?
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Gangles
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 23
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Posted 07/21/08
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#5
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Got about an hour in today, a few quick comments:
-The "land of the living" made me laugh out loud, very well done.
-The humour is much more subdued than other LucasArts adventure games I've played. I suppose it wouldn't fit the film noire vibe to be too wacky.
-I really miss the typical point-and-click interface, moving Manny around can be an exercise in frustration. He turns too slowly, gets stuck easily, and it can be tricky to tell which objects are interactive. You could play Monkey Island 3 entirely with the mouse, I sort of miss that.
Despite my minor niggles I'm very much enjoying the game so far. I'll try to sneak in another hour before bed.
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MattB
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 6
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Posted 07/21/08
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#6
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I spent a bit of time yesterday playing The Secret of Monkey Island (the first game), and I can't help but wonder how much better it would be with voice.
Grim Fandango's gameplay is not revolutionary; far from it. The characters (brought to life by the great vocal work) are the game's greatest asset. I'm currently in Year 3 and I think every character I've met so far has had their own interesting little quirks.
I do disagree a little bit with the games graphics. The backgrounds are well-imagined, but during certain scenes the characters are a bit messy. They're certainly good enough to be expressive, but I can't help but feel they would be a bit better if the characters were sprite-based (like Full-Throttle, another excellent Schafer game), for example. The only time thus far I really found them distracting was in the Petrified Forest. At that particular point, the hot-rod looked like a low-polygon mess, and I could barely tell which direction Manny was facing. That brings me to a second issue...
Tank controls (meaning, Manny rotates and moves forward and backward much as a tank would). I had not played a game that controlled this way since Resident Evil Code Veronica, and I thought people complained about "tank controls" overmuch at the time, but after booting up Grim Fandango I realized just how archaic they really are. Early on, I yearned for a point and click interface.
I found the puzzles very clever thus far, as well. I actually got stuck for quite awhile in Day 1, however, for a pretty stupid reason. Put simply, I had no idea of the existence of the server room. I'm going to blame that one on the camera and the controls. 
One last observation. I think it's great that Fandango doesn't throw the story at you in a lengthy introductory scene or some type of tutorial. Much like a good book or movie, you're gradually introduced to Manny's history, his current pridicament, the plot, etc. Something that even good game stories rarely do.
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jvandres
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 5
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Posted 07/22/08
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#7
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Style. Style, and more style. How appropriate that the game starts on the Day of the Dead. Taking the most festive holiday about death and applying it to a game set in the afterlife was a great idea. The wackiness of combining that with a noiresque atmosphere provides for a unique experience that's both fantastical and familiar. I haven't been to the land of the dead in several years but I'm enjoying the return.
The character design with its simplistic expressions really lets the voice work shine.
I'm contemplating whether to try a different control scheme. Maybe using a gamepad while having movement be based on the screen position instead of where Manny is facing would be less tedius. Has anyone tried this?
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brainygamer
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Registered: 07/13/08
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Posted 07/22/08
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#8
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Agreed about the controls, Matthew and MattB. In its day it seemed like a big "3D" evolutionary improvement over the previous LucasArts point and click games, but it's certainly feels cumbersome today.
Has anyone tried using a joystick or gamepad? I notice an option in the setup menu, but haven't tried it. I'm assuming the keyboard is probably the way to go.
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10rdBen
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 79
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Posted 07/22/08
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#9
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I'm just gonna echo Gangles and MattB - I'm not really enjoying fighting the controls. Call me impatient, call me a mouse-maniac - whatever! - I just really don't like the "tank" controls as MattB calls them.
And it's a serious issue for me. It actually stopped me playing the game when I first got Grim Fandango a few months ago because I hated the controls! It's only because of the Vintage Game Club that I've come back to it. Kinda glad that I did though, because there is a lot of good.
But man... those controls... GAH! =P
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coreywhompus
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 2
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Posted 07/22/08
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#10
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I haven't started playing yet but the last time I played I used a logitech ps2-style pad and remember enjoying the experience moving with the analog stick. I've still got the pad and will be trying it out as soon as I get out of my work OS (OSX) and into my play OS (XP) which should be in a few days.
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Flitcraft
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 9
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Posted 07/22/08
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#11
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No, I totally disagree about the controls. Just a month or so ago, I played through Gabriel Knight 2: The Beast Within and while I'll definitely give point-and-click some credit, I prefer Grim Fandango's approach. In the first place, I love that Manny's head locks-on to objects of interest. It's vastly superior to pixel-hunting. Second, I think it contributes to the immersion. It's annoying that Manny moves so glacially at times, but I like feeling like there's a space for me to explore. With adventure games where the mouse is the primary interface device, I tend to feel like I'm looking at pictures with characters superimposed on them.
The controls could have been better implemented, though, I'll grant you. I especially warn everybody to save a lot throughout this game, because there are a few places where Manny seems to love to get stuck.
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brainygamer
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Posted 07/22/08
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#12
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Quote: Originally Posted by jvandres
Style. Style, and more style. How appropriate that the game starts on the Day of the Dead. Taking the most festive holiday about death and applying it to a game set in the afterlife was a great idea.
I've been thinking about this question of style and trying to sort out exactly what that means in the context of this game. Maybe I should break this out as a separate thread, but I'm curious to know how others track this thing we call style. I agree this game has it in spades, but if style was simply a checkbox on a feature list, all games would be stylish, wouldn't they? 
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danbruno
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Posted 07/22/08
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#13
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Two notes:
- If you press Ctrl-M you'll toggle the controls out of "tank mode" (i.e., each of the arrow keys moves Manny in a given direction, instead of the left/right keys spinning him and the up/down keys making him walk). I actually prefer the tank controls, though; with the camera angle switching, I find it more convenient to hold down the up key and have Manny continue to move in the same direction.
- You can hold Shift to run.
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davidwhitney
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 2
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Posted 07/22/08
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#14
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I actually didn't suffer so much with the controls, but rather the slightly glitchy scene transitions. The lifts on the first floor of the office building are a point of contention, along with a few of the other doors as it's possible to run close to them and either rebound or accidentally transition without intention.
That said, I think I'm fairly tolerant of the controls and I don't remember disliking them at the time. I'll second the "it beats pixel hunting" statement from above.
I think the style makes a lot of this game. It's actually quite subtle (once you get past being the grim reaper) and doesn't bombard you. Instead it's all fairly cohesive and that's why it's successful. Nothing feels out of place.
It's quite open about it's influences, the Chinatown feel especially but that adds to the charm, especially when framed against the surreal character design.
It's worth noting that the characters look a lot nicer using 3d acceleration, but I was having issues enabling it on modern hardware. They're not the most expressive, but that was technology and not game design. I think if they went with sprites they would've seemed exceptionally superimposed (a fate which earlier adventures suffered) and it'd break the suspension of disbelief.
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MattB
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 6
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Posted 07/22/08
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#15
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Quote: Originally Posted by brainygamer
Agreed about the controls, Matthew and MattB. In its day it seemed like a big "3D" evolutionary improvement over the previous LucasArts point and click games, but it's certainly feels cumbersome today.
Has anyone tried using a joystick or gamepad? I notice an option in the setup menu, but haven't tried it. I'm assuming the keyboard is probably the way to go.
I tried both and preferred the gamepad (wired Xbox 360 gamepad), but I imagine the keyboard would be more precise than an analog stick.
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jvandres
Registered: 07/14/08
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Posted 07/22/08
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#16
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Quote: Originally Posted by brainygamerI've been thinking about this question of style and trying to sort out exactly what that means in the context of this game. Maybe I should break this out as a separate thread, but I'm curious to know how others track this thing we call style. I agree this game has it in spades, but if style was simply a checkbox on a feature list, all games would be stylish, wouldn't they?
This would be a very interesting discussion! Maybe we could start with our current game. For me, Grim Fandango seems to try to distinguish itself aesthetically through the cohesion of a couple of very distinctive representations. It's set in the afterlife, hence the character design mimics the paper mache figures of the Mexican Day of the Dead. It's got mystery, criminals, so more "noir-ish" elements become more apparent later in the game.
Quote: Originally Posted by davidwhitney
I think the style makes a lot of this game. It's actually quite subtle (once you get past being the grim reaper) and doesn't bombard you. Instead it's all fairly cohesive and that's why it's successful. Nothing feels out of place.
Others in this thread have described style as subtle but the choice of representation seems quite apparent. What is actually subtle and quite a feat to have accomplished was to smoothly combine these representations into something that is unique per se.
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asimone
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 5
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Posted 07/22/08
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#17
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Quote: Originally Posted by jvandresThis would be a very interesting discussion! Maybe we could start with our current game. For me, Grim Fandango seems to try to distinguish itself aesthetically through the cohesion of a couple of very distinctive representations. It's set in the afterlife, hence the character design mimics the paper mache figures of the Mexican Day of the Dead. It's got mystery, criminals, so more "noir-ish" elements become more apparent later in the game. Quote: Originally Posted by davidwhitney
I think the style makes a lot of this game. It's actually quite subtle (once you get past being the grim reaper) and doesn't bombard you. Instead it's all fairly cohesive and that's why it's successful. Nothing feels out of place. Others in this thread have described style as subtle but the choice of representation seems quite apparent. What is actually subtle and quite a feat to have accomplished was to smoothly combine these representations into something that is unique per se.
jvandres is quite right. The brilliance is in the mish-mash of themes and the real difficulty is how was can articulate and parse those themes. I suspect understanding the game's take on film noir, or at least 1940s' cinematography is the key to much of this. I almost feel like I need to watch Casablanca again before I can substantively talk about Year 1.
The play control issue, I think, is related to this discussion.
Quote: Originally Posted by MattB
Tank controls (meaning, Manny rotates and moves forward and backward much as a tank would). I had not played a game that controlled this way since Resident Evil Code Veronica, and I thought people complained about "tank controls" overmuch at the time, but after booting up Grim Fandango I realized just how archaic they really are. Early on, I yearned for a point and click interface.
I understand the frustration but Tank control and dramatic changes in camera angles, I think, go hand-in-hand.
Because of the cinematic feel, the game requires these radically different camera angles and, as danbruno commented, tank control is more convenient than the alternative. Who here remembers the ocassional FFVII frustration from weird camera angles?
The complaints about Resident Evil's tank controls, consequently, are as misguided as people who complained about its "camera angle" problems. You weren't suppose to see everything well, creatures were there to surprise you, and often you were meant to feel claustrophobia. The "bad" camera angles provide those tones and possiblities.
So, if my reasoning is right (and, Lord knows, the opposite is more often true), the play controls are not simply an archaic problem but a necessity stemming out of our hazy word "style."
I guess in the end I am suggesting that limited mobility and perspective isn't always limiting.
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hungSolo
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 15
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Posted 07/22/08
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#18
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Thanks for getting me to return to this game. I've been on a tear revisiting old titles I hadn't finished anyway ... should have got to this one sooner. I'd forgotten just how great it is.
Love the designs for the living in the diner, and I love the topper that ends that scene: "Nice bathrobe!" Laughed out loud.
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davidcarlton
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Posted 07/22/08
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#19
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I played for about an hour and a half last night; and I come here finding that other people have already talked about what I wanted to talk about! No big surprise I suppose.
On the graphics: I'm really pleased at how it holds up, I love the art deco style. Looking at Glottis, my first reaction was "wow, that's not very many polygons, is it", but my second reaction was "so what?" I mean, maybe it would have been better if each of his teeth had been lovingly crafted out of 100 polygons (instead of existing solely as textures on the face), but maybe not: that might have shifted the designers out of bringing out the humor of Glottis's size and behavior and into, well, modeling teeth. Not to take anything away from tooth modeling, but it may be harder to present a strong unified style when you're going down to that level. See also Dan's recent blog post on graphics: http://cruiseelroy.net/2008/07/graphics/
(And I, like others, love the voice acting; despite my idiosyncratic sound problems, it still very much shines through.)
About the controls: since I haven't actually played many graphical adventure games, my point of reference there was "would I prefer controlling this like a text adventure or not?" And sometimes the answer is "yes": as other people have mentioned, the movement is a bit wonky, and even if it wasn't, it might be nice to just be able to type "n; e; e; n; w; d; n; e" (or whatever) to get from my office to the balloon guy. The recent graphical adventure games that I have played are the Phoenix Wright series, and I have a new appreciation for the limited number of rooms in those games: it's not like Grim Fandango is particularly spread out or anything, but it still makes a difference.
But what I do like is the simplicity of interacting with the environment and managing inventory: it's very nice to not have to play "guess the verb". Instead, I just hit enter on the keypad when standing near a point of interest and holding an object; either something appropriate will happen or nothing will happen, and either way I know I'm not missing anything in that interaction.
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Gangles
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 23
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Posted 07/22/08
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#20
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Quote: Originally Posted by asimoneQuote: Originally Posted by jvandresThis would be a very interesting discussion! Maybe we could start with our current game. For me, Grim Fandango seems to try to distinguish itself aesthetically through the cohesion of a couple of very distinctive representations. It's set in the afterlife, hence the character design mimics the paper mache figures of the Mexican Day of the Dead. It's got mystery, criminals, so more "noir-ish" elements become more apparent later in the game. Quote: Originally Posted by davidwhitney
I think the style makes a lot of this game. It's actually quite subtle (once you get past being the grim reaper) and doesn't bombard you. Instead it's all fairly cohesive and that's why it's successful. Nothing feels out of place. Others in this thread have described style as subtle but the choice of representation seems quite apparent. What is actually subtle and quite a feat to have accomplished was to smoothly combine these representations into something that is unique per se. jvandres is quite right. The brilliance is in the mish-mash of themes and the real difficulty is how was can articulate and parse those themes. I suspect understanding the game's take on film noir, or at least 1940s' cinematography is the key to much of this. I almost feel like I need to watch Casablanca again before I can substantively talk about Year 1.
I thought Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation put it well when he said the following in his Psychonauts review:
"One of the themes running through [Tim] Schafer's humour is the juxtaposition of a mundane situation and a bizarre or fantastical setting."
In the case of Grim Fandango, it's clearly a travel agency and a film noire style Mexican underworld. The clash between the mundane and the fantastic plays heavily on the game's sense of style, but I think there's something more at play here that I can't quite put my finger on.
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MattB
Registered: 07/14/08
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Posted 07/22/08
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#21
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Quote: Originally Posted by asimone
I understand the frustration but Tank control and dramatic changes in camera angles, I think, go hand-in-hand.
Because of the cinematic feel, the game requires these radically different camera angles and, as danbruno commented, tank control is more convenient than the alternative. Who here remembers the ocassional FFVII frustration from weird camera angles?
The complaints about Resident Evil's tank controls, consequently, are as misguided as people who complained about its "camera angle" problems. You weren't suppose to see everything well, creatures were there to surprise you, and often you were meant to feel claustrophobia. The "bad" camera angles provide those tones and possiblities.
So, if my reasoning is right (and, Lord knows, the opposite is more often true), the play controls are not simply an archaic problem but a necessity stemming out of our hazy word "style."
I guess in the end I am suggesting that limited mobility and perspective isn't always limiting.
I do agree completely. If one compares the first Resident Evil, for example, with Resident Evil 4, it is quite clear that the first game is inherently more suspenseful (and frightening) because you cannot see everything and do not feel completely in control of your character.
To further beat the Resident Evil horse, there has been some discussion on the 1UP Yours podcast regarding whether Resident Evil 5 should allow you to move and shoot at the same time. Some of the editors are of the opinion that implementing such a scheme would "break the game", as the tension and balance of the combat would be lost. The series may have already become less "survival horror" and more of an action game with zombies. "Gears of Evil", so to speak.
If you approach these controls with a concern only for "gameplay", the easier control scheme is probably a better choice. However, what Grim Fandango (or the first Resident Evil game) sacrifices in usability it gains in style. So I would agree that in this situation is works out just fine, particularly because Fandango is not an action game.
However, I would like to think that, ideally, game design need not sacrifice ease of use for atmosphere, and there is some way we can have it both ways.
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brainygamer
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Posted 07/22/08
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#22
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Quote: Originally Posted by GanglesI thought Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation put it well when he said the following in his Psychonauts review: "One of the themes running through [Tim] Schafer's humour is the juxtaposition of a mundane situation and a bizarre or fantastical setting."
In the case of Grim Fandango, it's clearly a travel agency and a film noire style Mexican underworld. The clash between the mundane and the fantastic plays heavily on the game's sense of style, but I think there's something more at play here that I can't quite put my finger on.
I don't know if this gets any closer, Matthew, but the thing I would add to Yahtzee's summary is a particular blend of sardonic/sweet humor that seems to wind its way through Schafer's work. His characters grumble and grouse, but they're never bitter in a sinister way. Sad-sack Manny seems to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, but he's not dark or pathological. It's this mixture of witty sarcasm and lightheartedness that carries the day in Schafer's games, at least for me.
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SeanBeanland
Registered: 07/14/08
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Posted 07/22/08
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#23
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Just installed it tonight and it works perfectly on Vista using the tips listed in the other thread. Don't have too much to say yet, except that it's been a long time since I've played one of these adventure games, and it's curious how quickly I slipped back into the mode of clicking (in this case, hitting Enter) on everything in sight to see what, if anything, happens. I solved the work order puzzle by accident because I went into the boss's office before going into the garage. I wonder how hard a time I would have had if I had done it "right."
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Atomicvege
Registered: 07/15/08
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Posted 07/23/08
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#24
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I started playing tonight and played up until you meet Salvador Lemones. I forgot how immersive the world is. It really draws you in, making you want to explore and talk to everyone. I was smiling and laughing through most conversation trees (especially anything to do with Glottis).
Having played the game before, i flew through the work order and client stealing puzzles. I remember how hard i found these as a 16 year old when the game first came out. The client stealing puzzle seriously took me a couple of days (though i felt so happy when i finally figured it out). It's interesting in retrospect to see the hints the game gives towards the solution of these puzzles. I have to wonder if it is enough. Am i the only one that really had trouble with the first two main puzzles of the game? If so, this could have been a put off for many people when the game came out. Still, the characters and humour - then as now - made me persevere.
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sparky
Registered: 07/14/08
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Posted 07/23/08
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#25
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I thought the second puzzle was great, but the work order puzzle relied on what I think of as an illegitimate approach. The game world didn't really provide any knowledge (although I may have missed something) that would enable you to solve the work order unless you act in a way that contradicts the character's motives. Manny is desperate to get the order signed; unless he already knows what's going on with Don it's not reasonable for him to go outside. For the player, who knows that there must be some solution to this problem, leaving the building is reasonable, but forcing the player to use that knowledge breaks the immersion.
This was always a problem for adventure games -- almost every one I ever played had at least one problem or puzzle where what you had to do was so obscure that your only recourse was to keep trying every item or action in your arsenal until you finally hit on the right combination. But this is a very unnatural way to solve problems: if your iPod is locked in your girlfriend's car you don't try to combine your cat with a watermelon to open the door. Puzzle designs that force the player or character to act unnaturally deny the player the ability to keep his mind active in the world of the game.
By contrast, the client-stealing puzzle proceeds in a rational way. The game gives you all the information needed to figure out what to do, and each of Manny's intermediate steps makes sense for him on the way to the goal. At the same time, what you need to do isn't painfully obvious, so there's some sense of accomplishment when you solve the problem. I never felt that with the work order.
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"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov
XBL: SparkyClarkson
http://mwclarkson.blogspot.com
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