Bobbicus
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Registered: 06/09/10
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| Posted 10/22/10 at 12:41 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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There wasn't a thread for the Mortuary where you wake up, so I figured I'd make one.
My first playthrough I wore a zombie disguise, killed a dustie for her cloak, and walked out the front door. I missed Deionara's memorial completely.
Needless to say my experience was vastly different from the second time around when I explored everything and just ran from the Dusties. There's a lot of little details in the mortuary that are pretty interesting.
Speaking of Deionarra, did anyone else pause when she asks you to promise to join her? I mean, your options are
1) make a half-hearted "I'll try"
2) Make Vow: Yes
3) Lie: Yes
What does make vow mean? Will that bind me to something later in the game? Who is this woman and why is she trying to rope me into joining her wherever she is? Why is she the only person with a memorial?
All questions to be answered in time.
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makewayforducklings
Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 16
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| Posted 10/22/10 at 02:01 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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| You know, I think I had similar feeling of "wait a sec is this one of those if-you-make-a-vow-there-is-no-undo?" I'm instinctively wary of game situations where something I do looks like it has permanent and long lasting effects.
Quote: Why is she the only person with a memorial?
(Speaking of this: why is there a blank tomb on the opposite side of the mortuary? I definitely got the feeling that *someone* belonged there...)
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Rexman64
Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 6
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| Posted 10/22/10 at 05:12 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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The Mortuary struck me almost immediately. Realizing that every single zombie had an individual description, and that many of them had unique interactions, led me to a silent declaration that "Wow, this game is special." Seeing more and more of the writing bore that out; the characters just have a life to their dialog that isn't present in a lot of RPGs.
I didn't get the zombie disguise, and had a heck of a time finding the key to get to the first floor. The dustmen weren't terribly difficult to avoid, but tying progress to that one specific item in that one specific box was frustrating
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Bobbicus
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| Posted 10/22/10 at 08:22 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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More importantly, the fact that the descriptions on some of the zombies are *important*, at least for some side quests. It's not just flavorful - if you pay attention you can reap some good rewards out of it.
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TheGameCritique
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 45
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 12:01 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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I played through the mortuary twice. The first time I found a puzzle cube that I spent a while figuring out and then got a special item. Second time I couldn't find it anywhere. Really confused me.
I think it's telling that the game gets right to it. Before you can do anything, the game brings in the gabbing skull. The game tells you right away what it's about: the conversation. you can gab with the skull for a while, but right after you have to kill the worker. Bobbicus, I know you said that you killed to get out, but it is really telling, especially with high Charisma, you can get out without killing anyone.
Oh and as for escape routes I found two. One wasn't an option the second time around I suppose because of my stats. Not only ways out, but they take you to different locals once you are out.
In any work, especially one that is called literary the beginning is super important and one of the most looked at parts of said work. Not only does it have to effectively get your interest and then keep it, it also has to show you the rules and themes of the work right away. A book generally has 5-10 pages, a movie about 15 minutes to set the rules up, not the situation or conflict, that happens second.
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Bobbicus
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 01:36 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Indeed. My second playthrough I got out nice and sneaky without even being seen by the dusties - and in a completely different part of Sigil.
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Kirk
Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 6
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 03:36 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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| Thanks to having to reinstall the game a few times, I've now played through the intro several times. I had around the same build each time, so I pretty much did it the same way each time through, plus I was in a hurry just to get back to where my save had been. Kill the zombies, get the key, dress up as a Dustman and eventually talk my way out the front door.
Interesting that there are so many other options! Really nice to play a game that feels huge in its depth, not just its geography.
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TheCleverMonkey
Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 8
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 10:19 AM | Reply with quote #8 |
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I managed to talk one of the guards at the gates into opening the door. Also, I was able to shame Deionarra for requesting a vow from me, so she'd give me her vision without me making any kind of promise. My NO has high mental and social stats, so perhaps that's the reason.
Interesting that a Nameless One of different can approach things differently, though. It seems like most of us have found different ways out, and apparently we've had different dialogue options. To some extent, I feel like this is a hallmark of this era of RPGs, and something that the current era has trended away from - away from this level of complexity, I mean.
I've wondered if, perhaps, this change in design in modern RPG has to do with the need to have nearly everything voice acted, and avoid text-heavy interactions? The modern audience doesn't seem to care for text-heavy games, but I would imagine that you can fit a lot more complexity and dialogue into a game if it's entirely in text form.
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Kirk
Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 6
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 11:42 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally posted by TheCleverMonkeyI've wondered if, perhaps, this change in design in modern RPG has to do with the need to have nearly everything voice acted, and avoid text-heavy interactions?
I'd say that's the entire reason. I wonder if it'll always be the case, though...
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TheCleverMonkey
Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 8
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 02:01 PM | Reply with quote #10 |
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I agree that it's probably a motivator, but I imagine that there is room for other reasons.
Provided games stay in the mainstream, perhaps it will always be the case. Perhaps text-dialogue in games has become like subtitles in movies - many people won't bother, if they find out that they have to read to get through the experience?
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Rowan
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Registered: 04/23/10
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| Posted 10/23/10 at 02:34 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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I feel like many of the biggest modern RPGs still use a lot of text - Fallout 3 certainly did - but yes, the voice acting can cause major problems.
Torment's historical context is fairly interesting. Nowadays, we view the late 1990's as a great time for PC RPGs, with games like Torment and its Infinity Engine pals, Fallout, Daggerfall, M&M, Deus Ex, and the Diablos. At the time, it was viewed as a dark age, thanks to a collapse in quantity that occurred around the time that CD-based games became the norm. This was, in large part, because the graphics, voices, and sounds that were expected for big-time releases were harder to do more open-ended role-playing games than they were for more linear games of other genres.
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Bobbicus
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Registered: 06/09/10
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| Posted 10/24/10 at 12:38 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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Full voice-acting, while sometimes nice, often detracts from an RPG.
For example, people often complain about "false choices" - dialogue options that look different but don't actually elicit any different responses. I actually like these in older games like Torment, Baldur's gate, or even KOTOR, because it let's you put the lines in your own voice instead of listening to another actor's interpretation. Depending on how you read a line, it can be sarcastic, snarky, deadpan, serious, menacing, or a host of other emotions. Of course, good writing should give you the general intention behind a line, but your own interpretation makes it *yours.* It really helps role-playing a character as opposed to "guiding" a set character's actions.
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AmishNinja
Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 6
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| Posted 10/24/10 at 01:20 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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| Mass Effect does a good job of making you feel like the lines you choose are yours, too. Shepard says the gist of what you select, not the exact phrasing. |
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Bobbicus
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| Posted 10/24/10 at 12:37 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Mass Effect is a good example - Playing through as Male vs Female Shepard can be completely different just because of the way Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale interpret lines. I was often really frustrated at the way Meer would say certain lines because he had a really understated preformance that made a bunch of lines come off as really flat. Playing female was much more enjoyable to me because Hale would say lines more in line with the way I wanted them said.
Even then there were times where the "dialogue circle" really constricted what was allowed to happen. You don't really role-play Shepard as much as choose whether Shepard will be a dick or naive in each conversation. Which is fine, because Mass Effect isn't really an RPG anyway - notice how much better the second game was when they stripped out all the "RPG elements" and focused on the shooty bits?
Speaking of Jennifer Hale, she voices Fall-From-Grace in this game.
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Moaner
Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 5
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| Posted 10/24/10 at 06:37 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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I find voice acting in games pretty pointless at best; more of the time it just annoys me. I don't see how, even if it's of really high quality, it can add anything of genuine substance. I still have it on, but at low volume; I usually listen to my own music while playing and just have the sound effects turned up high. Nameless One's constant grunts of "I'm gone" are rather aggravating.
I enjoyed the mortuary, largely due to the extensive detail in the descriptions mentioned by previous posters. I got out more or less by accident after talking to Deionarra, so I'm pretty sure I missed plenty of stuff. I found I was drawn in pretty quickly; the way the scenario is set up made me want to find out more. Pretty pleased so far.
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JoeTortuga
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 14
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| Posted 10/24/10 at 11:05 PM | Reply with quote #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Bobbicus
1) make a half-hearted "I'll try"
2) Make Vow: Yes
3) Lie: Yes
How many games let you say the same thing, but one time it's true, and the other time it's a lie? It doesn't change how Deionarra responds, but it does change who you are. I think this is one of the things that really affects how I feel about Planescape: Torment.
Turns out that the one zombie I killed was the Anarchist spy, so I missed out on those options. I may go back to play through those again, but I have done it in the past. This TNO was able to finesse his way out, though, so I'm in the Hive, about to be overwhelmed with choice. |
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Atomicvege
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 43
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| Posted 10/25/10 at 08:43 AM | Reply with quote #17 |
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Aside from the detail of the game (every zombie worker is a little bit different, and some have things for you), just the amount of options available to you in this small 3 screen area of the game is astonishing.
I'm almost a little sceptical that the game will keep this up. So many games have these amazing openings that set up your enthusiasm, and then as the game expands and continues, you find the amount of polish put into the first section has not been replicated. Seeing the amount of admiration amongst gamers towards PS:T though, i have a feeling i won't be dissapointed.
While this game is primarily based around conversation, i guess some of my RPG habits died hard. I couldn't resist snapping dustman necks 
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Jonathan
Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 25
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| Posted 10/25/10 at 12:12 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
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| And I, by comparison, was killed the first (and only) time I tried snapping a neck. I just didn't have the stats for it. I had to talk my way out of everything.
I did take apart every skeleton though, just to see if I could, including the giant ones on the main floor. |
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TheGameCritique
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 45
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| Posted 10/25/10 at 08:34 PM | Reply with quote #19 |
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Wait, there was an anarchist spy among the zombies. I love a game that has details like that, it could matter, but it's part of a larger world that generally doesn't care about you one lick. Later one you might get involved, you might not be able to, but it's there.
This doesn't spoil anything, but later in the hive, don't know where, got randomly teleported by Deionarra. Used to standard RPG conventions, espeically of the infinity engine, I walked into a house and before I could click on anything the guy eating his lunch at the table of his house told me to get the HELL out. My eyes nearly bugged out of my sockets. I responded rather meekly "ok" and left. See you don't have punish people to have legitimate consequence in a game. Just have the world or characters respond rationally, or as close as you can get. That one moment that didn't really mean anything still sticks out after all these years later from that false start. Of course had I attacked and killed him, I probably would have felt like a real evil bastard than in any other RPG.
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Kirk
Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 6
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| Posted 10/26/10 at 03:42 AM | Reply with quote #20 |
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| On the text thing - what I've noticed about this game that separates it from text-heavy current RPGs (like FO3 or Olivion) is the nature of its text. In PS:T, it's all so written... the text not only conveys dialogue, it also describes what's going on, it goes into detail about speaker and his or her environment.
Often when we talk about a game's writing, we're mainly talking about the dialogue. In most RPGs, the bulk of the writing is either in dialogue or in a codex somewhere. What's so cool about PS:T is that the game's writing is much more all-encompasing and much more vital to the core experience.
Obviously this is old hat to for anyone who's already played the game, but I haven't, so I'm just now really seeing it. It's pretty great.
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Bobbicus
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| Posted 10/26/10 at 10:55 AM | Reply with quote #21 |
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One of the most memorable pieces of text for me is actually the corpse fly charm:
"This corpse fly looks like it was frozen; it appears to be dead, but you can't be sure..."
You simply can't convey that through graphical representation.
"When swallowed, the recipient suddenly becomes extremely nauseous...a few seconds later, the charmed individual expels a stream of insects from their nose and mouth."
That either. Also note how text can invoke other senses other than visual and auditory.
"Provided the charmed individual can keep their wits about them after the casting, the caster can send this cloud to attack a target."
This charm also illustrates one of the things I love about Torment - its grungg, macabre atmosphere. You don't take a healing potion, you eat a charmed blot clot. Your primary form of disposable magical attacks isn't spells, it's painfully shooting a cloud of flies from your nose and mouth to swarm your enemy.
Reading the descriptions is half the fun. Kinda like System Shock 2 - you don't have to to play the game, but it makes the experience so much better.
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Bobbicus
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| Posted 10/26/10 at 11:28 AM | Reply with quote #22 |
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Another good one from the mortuary -
"This disemboweled corpse proves just how far you can stretch skin without tearing it."
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Jebus
Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 92
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| Posted 10/26/10 at 07:57 PM | Reply with quote #23 |
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I must be missing something. I explored the entire second floor, got that quest from the blind deaf lady, talked to some dustman while disguised about the dude with the huge book, opened everything on the third floor, went back downstairs and talked to the book guy to find about about D... the woman with the memorial on the first floor and then found that every other door was locked and required a key to open. I then went on a murderous rampage killing every zombie and dustman on the third floor and several on the second, including the lady with the quest (which I completed first for a memory and permanent health boost) who dropped a key that doesn't seem to open anything.
I have no idea how to get to the first floor, every door is locked, what am I missing?
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Rowan
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Registered: 04/23/10
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| Posted 10/26/10 at 07:59 PM | Reply with quote #24 |
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There's a bookshelf with a Mortuary Key on the third floor.
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kateri
Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 40
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| Posted 10/28/10 at 06:36 PM | Reply with quote #25 |
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So far, I wandered around laughing at Morte's zombie-chat-up technique for a while, running from dusties. Let a tiefling feel me up for XP, spent some time disguised as a zombie, then lost my disguise 'cause I like talking to people too much. Chatted with the... ex-gf? Is she still ex if she's dead but still in love with me but I can't remember? Hm. Talked her out of making me promise anything. Got a lump of stuff from Skeleton 42's ribcage, and various other trinkets from messing with the staff. Ended up talking my way out of the front door - dunno how, since I wasn't even in disguise of any sort, and looked, y'know, like a walking corpse, but I'll take it. I also told the Dusters about the Anarchist spy, just for the hell of it. Hope that didn't piss off the Anarchists enough that it locks me out of too much fun stuff later.
Out in Sigil now! |
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