link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/12/11 at 12:46 AM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| Lots of symbolism is used in persona 3, from the evokers to summon persona to the coffin's of the dark hour. This topic is to discuss that imagery |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/12/11 at 05:05 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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So, you guys might have a question about that butterfly.
He has a name, actually. Hang on, this is going to go off-track for a minute.
In Persona and Persona 2 (IS & EP), the primary force for "Good" (sort of) was a being name Philemon. For those following along at home, that name comes from Jung, just as the concepts of Personas and Shadows do. Philemon would awaken Personas in select people (ie your party), as part of the plot. At the end of Persona 2, he... steps down, somewhat, when it comes to direct intervention in the affairs of man.
Thus, in Persona 3, as well as Persona 4, he appears only as a butterfly, and his name is not used.
Igor is his servant - he does all of the work now.
Obviously, this is all tangential to Persona 3, but it explains where the butterfly came from. See, Philemon largely took the form of a human wearing a mask (masks: personas/shadows), but his, I guess totem, was a butterfly and he sometimes appeared in that form.
He appeared as a butterfly because the original Persona opened with the ages-old quote about the man who dreamed he was a butterfly who dreamed he was a man. This quote was of significant relevance to Persona and Persona 2 (other worlds formed of the self, and so on), and thematically still applies to a lesser extent in Persona 3 and Persona 4 (are you the mask, or the person beneath it, etc).
Secondarily, he is a butterfly because the manner of his involvement in the plot of those games involved only awakening the heroes, and no other assistance - so he was, in essence, the butterfly that flapped its wings a hundred miles away to create a storm here, if you follow me.
So, that's the secret history of that.
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 08/14/11 at 01:06 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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| That's some great background information! Unfortunately P3 is my first Persona...hopefully I will pick up a PS Vita in the foreseeable future so I can play the first two!
Even in the few hours I've played of the game so far, I've noticed the richness of symbolism. Some of the symbols I'm not quite sure what to make of yet, but I find the Evoker very interesting. Obviously there's an edginess to the imagery that comes out of a general discomfort with seeing teenagers point guns to their own heads. But I think that's where a lot of the power comes from: there's a sense that to use the Evoker is extremely difficult. It's just short of committing suicide. That comes across in the anime scene at the beginning, when we see Yukari trying to pull the trigger and losing her nerve. Then later, one wonders what kind of a person the main character is to use the Evoker without so much as flinching. I think Junpei says at one point something to the effect of, you've got to be pretty crazy to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger like that. So what to make of these characters, who do so multiple times in every battle? |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/14/11 at 01:25 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by thisyearsmodel
That's some great background information! Unfortunately P3 is my first Persona...hopefully I will pick up a PS Vita in the foreseeable future so I can play the first two!
Well, I WILL warn you... Persona 1 & 2 (both halves) are very, very different from Persona 3 and 4. Persona 1, in particular, is a very flawed game, for as fond of it as I am. They are both closer to other Megami Tensei games, have a heavier reliance on grinding, etc.
For people who really enjoy Persona 3, I personally find the easiest way to ease oneself into the variations in the other series installments (dependant on one's consoles) is something like Persona 3 > Persona 4 > Devil Survivor > Persona 2 > anything else (Devil Summoner, Persona 1, Nocturne, etc) > Digital Devil Saga, based on number of innovations, similarities to Persona 3, level of polish, etc. Obviously, other people might disagree.
Quote: Even in the few hours I've played of the game so far, I've noticed the richness of symbolism. Some of the symbols I'm not quite sure what to make of yet, but I find the Evoker very interesting. Obviously there's an edginess to the imagery that comes out of a general discomfort with seeing teenagers point guns to their own heads. But I think that's where a lot of the power comes from: there's a sense that to use the Evoker is extremely difficult. It's just short of committing suicide. That comes across in the anime scene at the beginning, when we see Yukari trying to pull the trigger and losing her nerve. Then later, one wonders what kind of a person the main character is to use the Evoker without so much as flinching. I think Junpei says at one point something to the effect of, you've got to be pretty crazy to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger like that. So what to make of these characters, who do so multiple times in every battle?
What's especially intreresting is watching how, as the game progresses, the characters adapt to this - by the game's conclusion, Yukari's battle quotes have changed to the point where she's clearly much more comfortable using her Evoker.
Each teammate handles their Evoker differently, and it very much shows their personality. The main character, though, spins it like a gunslinger before firing! What makes the main character so comfortable with a symbolic death?
The idea of such a "death" in order to approach a side of oneself is a very potent image.
[EXTRA CREDIT: For those who have played Persona 4, or other Persona titles, notice how SEES is more inclined to order around their Personas, to treat them like weapons in a war, then say the cast of P4, who entreat them for help or think of them as partners. If you've played the other title, what does this say about how the different characters view themselves?]
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Karl
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 4
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| Posted 08/17/11 at 11:07 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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The biggest reason for me picking up this game is curiosity about the symbolism of the evokers. Is the game attempting to say something through the characters apparently shooting themselves in the head? Is there anything beyond the shock value intrinsic in the act? I'm hoping to get some answers to these questions as I play the game.
I also find it interesting that Tartarus is the name for the underworld (or hell) in Greek mythology.
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Whistler
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 08/17/11 at 12:02 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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| I've stopped really noticing the evokers by now, but I think it symbolizes a willingness to go into battle even if it kills you. Like, it takes guts! I think with so many battles in a fantasy game it's easy to forget that for normal people it would be really scary, and I think the in-battle comments (and the evokers, to an extent), help remind us of that. |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/17/11 at 04:45 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Karl
I also find it interesting that Tartarus is the name for the underworld (or hell) in Greek mythology.
Greek Mythology is a persistent theme, yes. Most, though not all, of your teammates have Personas rooted in that mythology. While the main character has access to the breadth of available Personas, his initial Persona is Orpheus - who traveled into the underworld.
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 08/17/11 at 05:58 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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| @Whistler: That's a great distillation of the Evoker; pretty much in line with (but much more concise and pithy than) my own thoughts, which I've already shared.
The shock factor is definitely there, though. The other night my wife walked in on me playing and was like "did that kid just shoot himself in the head?" It definitely makes you sit up and take notice. |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 07:02 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by thisyearsmodel
The shock factor is definitely there, though. The other night my wife walked in on me playing and was like "did that kid just shoot himself in the head?" It definitely makes you sit up and take notice.
It absolutely has deliberate symbolic purpose, but yeah, it's true - sadly, that one element appears to be what a great deal of the larger gaming community has taken away from this title.
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Whistler
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 55
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 02:51 PM | Reply with quote #10 |
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| The part in June where your teacher starts talking about how historically, "witches" were like a link to deity, made me think of the evokers. Specifically he mentioned that they had to be in a trance state to use their powers... so maybe the evoker is evoking being in a trance. :-) (I don't think that's too much of a spoiler?) |
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 06:12 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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The evokers are supposed to cause absolute focus that only the fear of dying can bring right?
Interestingly though, I recall reading Strega actually means witch or a group of them... |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/21/11 at 02:41 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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As I recall, players of P3:FES and its bonus quest "The Answer" get a little retroactive origin of the Evokers and how they were made.
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Karl
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 4
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| Posted 10/06/11 at 07:12 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
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| I've been thinking about the symbolism of the evokers and have an interpretation of what might be going on. Just my take on it. Tartarus is the underworld or hell of greek mythology. The main characters are fighting creatures in the land of the dead. The evokers symbolically kill the user to release the persona from their soul. This ties in with what happens when you get a new persona. It says that the persona has emerged from the sea of your soul. |
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Philemon
Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 1
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| Posted 11/30/12 at 07:36 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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I very much like this topic, and wish it to continue even though it has been a year.
I would be open to contributing my knowledge on the subject matter as well, granted someone would need to ask something, because I don't know where I wish to start. |
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