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link6616

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Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
Reply with quote #1 
Emie R raised a good topic for discussion in the Devil arcana thread. And warnings, this thread is likely to have spoilers for a lot of things, but this first post will NOT!

From Emie

That's a great point and it ties into something I've been meaning to mull over and start a discussion on: the P3 perspective on adulthood.  Clearly, neither Tanaka or Mutatsu are very good role models.  There's some pretty deep dissatifaction and angst that comes through in the conversations they have with the MC.  I find Tanaka to be kinda dull but at least he's a good instantiation of what the devil arcana symbolizes--materialistic, greedy, vain.

link6616

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Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
Reply with quote #2 
So adults in the Persona 3 world... We have the teachers, but only the hermit arcana and her role reveal show much. Tanaka, Mutatsu and that really only leaves Ikutsuki for other characters we really get to know well IIRC. But I'm sure we have others too I've missed...

Possibly worth noting something about japanese culture again... Not sure where I was reading about this, but basically, in western culture, we perceive that we can drastically change our lives well into our twenties, and possibly even our 30s...

In Japan, many people feel locked into their life choices by the age of 25 or so, and its for this reason Japanese protagonists are so young mostly. Any older and they would be unable to be able to change so drastically. This makes even the younger adults easy to be cynics, even the hermit is quite cynical and fairly young.
link6616

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Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
Reply with quote #3 
More by Emie R from the themes thread on this topic:

Adults in P3 (continued from a post started in Tanaka's thread)...

Mutatsu is totally disillusioned--he communicates a loss of ideals.  Maya is reluctant to make the full transition from adolescence to adulthood and even develops a crush on one of her students which betrays a lack of emotional maturity.  The old couple at the bookstore still struggle with the loss of their son after...how long ago?  I can't remember when their son had the accident in relation to the time of the game.  Anyway, also noteworthy of Bunkichi is his occasional bouts of senility.    

Is there a message here?  I get the feeling that it might be don't grow up.  Just look at Akinari--here's a young guy that's staring death in the face and he comes across as the most enlightened, self-actualized person in the entire game.  Apparently he didn't need a full lifetime of experience and contemplation to become as such.  I dunno--I'm probably mischaracterizing him in addition to being too pessimistic.  But check this out: in the series Persona: Trinity Soul, Akihiko can no longer summon his persona because apparently there is an age-limit on that ability.  Interesting, huh?

O_o 
Emie_R

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Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 50
Reply with quote #4 
Quote:
Possibly worth noting something about japanese culture again... Not sure where I was reading about this, but basically, in western culture, we perceive that we can drastically change our lives well into our twenties, and possibly even our 30s...


Absolutely worth noting the Japanese attitudes concerning youth and adulthood--they make up the basis of this topic.   So, the young are like the number zero--empty and yet full of infinite possibilities...  o_<

Is the level of responsibility attributed to the core characters an exaggeration?  First of all, the loss of one or more parents is so common in P3 that it's practically a motif.  And second, it's extremely hard for me to imagine a minimally supervised coed dorm of high schoolers.  I think this is because the western view of teenagers is that they are fundamentally irresponsible.  There's no way they would study and abstain from the usual shenanigans with no adults present to keep them in line.  Maybe this is because there isn't nearly as much pressure on western kids to make the grade and get into good colleges.  Not as much self-worth is tied to academic achievement.

For those who aren't completely orphaned, there's a lot of bad parenting in P3... Junpei and his drunk dad, Yukari and her bimbo mom, Mutatsu doesn't know anything about his son, Maiko's parents drive her to run away from home, both Fuuka and Keisuke have parents who want them to be doctors despite what they might want for themselves, etc. etc.  So as a result of all this it seems that most of the characters are forced into self-reliance.  But does this say something about them, about Japanese attitudes or is it merely for plot convenience?

O_o 

     

link6616

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Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
Reply with quote #5 
Oh the orphaned trope I think appears in everything... Look at Superman, Spiderman (well they were cared for, but many superheroes are parentless), and even those not orphaned in other media like Cloud and Tifa whose parents have no impact despite being so young. 

Orphan, amnesia are totally just plot contrivances, as would be the high school dorm I think, at least at the level we see it supervised.

Also, on parents... How many children in dramas in general come from well adjusted homes? The girl who lept through time? Spirited away? Not a lot and those that do are usually considered a bit of a rarity in the media.

I would say though that making teens more responsible than normal is quite typical in a lot of modern media (since the notion of the 'teenager' is socially speaking, rather new given it's slow progression since WW2), Donnie Darko comes to mind as a western idea of the same phenomenal...

I'm sure there are other western media examples of teenagers have a lot of authority over their lives that isn't typical in the slightest... But perhaps someone else has something to say on that...
Kris

Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 18
Reply with quote #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by link6616
in the series Persona: Trinity Soul, Akihiko can no longer summon his persona because apparently there is an age-limit on that ability.  Interesting, huh?

I didn't know that about Trinity Soul, but it's worth noting that TS is non-canon, and other Persona games have featured adult Persona users--arguably, P4 has two adult Persona users, Namatame and Adachi, although Izanami's interference could be credited there. Kandori of P1 is another example that could be argued, but both halves of P2 clearly have adult Persona users.

Many of the adults that P3 spends significant time with are a part of SLs, and part of the point of SLs is that these people have issues to work through. By the end of the SL, many are at least making an effort to improve, just like the teenage SLs. Some of them may be more innately admirable or likeable than others--I find Bunkichi and Mitsuko to be a very likeable grandparent-like couple, whose continued grief over the loss of their son is understandable (note that it has not caused them to do anything neglectful or malicious toward others--Bunkichi didn't suddenly become an alcoholic or something). Yet none of them are cardboard paragons of virtue--that's what makes them interesting, three-dimensional characters.

As for stories at large, even in a well-adjusted home, no one is perfect, and the issues that they have to work through are where the drama comes from. No conflict, no story.

The overall plotline does seem to have a definite note of the children cleaning up the adults' mess, though. For the brief time that we meet him, Mitsuru's father hardly seems all bad, but he is also paying for what his father did.

The dorm does seem to have minimal supervision, though--perhaps the influence of Kirijo so that SEES can take care of its business? Perhaps the Chairman is supposed to be a greater presence but is bad at his job... *cough cough* It does not seem unreasonable to me, though, that cultural influence could be a factor here, though how much of a factor I couldn't say.

Orphan/amnesia/the-parent-who-gets-mentioned-once-and-is-never-seen-again is definitely troperific, and P3 loves its tropes. The teenage superhero seems to be very common in manga and anime, with parental presence at varying levels. Still, one aspect of its themes is death, so all of these dead parents fits into the themes as well.

The most well-adjusted character I can think of is Koro-chan, so maybe the message isn't "don't grow up," it's "dogs are the best."
link6616

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Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
Reply with quote #7 
Persona 1 have quite a few adult Persona users... But, the mythos of how persona work ultimately varies from game to game. Even comparing P3 and 4 is a nightmare in that regard.
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