link6616
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Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 03:12 AM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| Because some of the discussion seems to be leaking out... I think this is a good topic to have... Also, I recently also got catherine and am multitasking that into my gaming diet... (FFV Four job fiesta for commuting, p3 for evenings, catherine when i can fit it...)
So yeah... Discuss P3 connections with other Megaten games, and catherine too! |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 07:01 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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I think I'm of only two active participants here at the moment that has finished Catherine, so let me say this: While it is absolutely not a MegaTen title, it very well could have been, and if you are the sort of person who establishes "personal canon," then there is little holding you back from considering it such, besides the facts of marketing - to my perception.
Speaking more specifically about why we're actually here - Persona 3 - it marks an interesting turning point in the MegaTen series as a whole. As I'd said in another thread, this was the game where they made more concerted efforts to be approachable and accessible, and it's certainly the game that finally captured the interest of western gamers in any substantial numbers - that we received both P3 AND P3:FES is a testament to that, I'd think.
More to the point, though, because of this opening of doors to a more worldwide audience, you see the MegaTen series as a whole beginning to shift direction from this moment forward. Happy endings become more easily achievable, the Judeochristian God becomes a less overt antagonist, the games are (on average, if not necessarily specifically) less brutally challenging, and the characters are more significantly fleshed out.
What's more, the success of the "social link" system has clearly impressed itself upon the developers, who are now using iterations of it (if significantly reduced) in other branches of the series (Devil Survivor 2) and not-officially-related titles like Catherine.
What can be interesting, as well, is to consider all of the influences that prior titles had on Persona 3. Most obviously, the "One More" system is a simplified version of the beloved "Press Turn" system of SMT: Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga.
How the original Persona trilogy (P1 > P2:IS > P2:EP) inspires Persona 3, but is also so very different, is another avenue for discourse.
I do expect that this thread will quickly become mired in a P3 vs. P4 debate, however.
It's funny, that the previous VGC title was Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The MegaTen series is arguably the only game series with a greater claim on the title of "most argued-about chronology and timeline."
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 07:05 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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| Do people really argue... I would have thought everyone was pretty much of the opinion that they are all just present...
I'd never even considered the timeline outside of the obvious SMT If games... Which I really need to buy the PS1 versions from PSN actually... both seemed interesting. |
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 07:19 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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SMT: Nocturne presents a multiverse concept through the use of the Amala Network, in which characters who have experience events from many of the titles appear.
Devil Summoner (Raidou) is a deliberate alternate history piece which is designed to provide a rationale for a timeline split (much in the manner of Ocarina of Time) - though exactly WHICH branches are split remain a subject of debate.
SMT: If... can be considered a prequel to the first Persona, but you could also just consider the first Persona a remake of If... and Tamaki's presence a tip of the hat to fans with no "canon" continuity.
SMT: Nocturne (ie SMT: III) features a reincarnation of the hero of SMT: II, which of course was a direct continuation of SMT.
SMT: IMAGINE, the free-to-play MMO, was not made by Atlus, but was designed specifically to fit into the primary SMT timeline.
Digital Devil Saga features angels who speak directly of events from SMT II.
SMT: Strange Journey is officially SMT: IV, but there is so comparatively little in the way of continuity (arguably), that many timeline-interested fans discount it as a direct sequel - I think this is also because it was a portable title? I'm not sure. Reasoning when it comes to this kind of discussion gets specious very quickly, you know how it is.
Persona and Persona 2 each feature alternate worlds. There is some argument as to which alternate world Persona 3 is continued from, if it is continued at all - the "Who's Who" segments suggest that it is.
Persona 4 references the events of Persona 3, but (necessarily, due to the time of its release) not the events of the female track of Persona 3 Portable.
The online game in Persona 3 references Tatsuya and Maya in the English translation - but in the original Japanese, it was a reference to the original SMT games.
The original Megami Tensei games, I and II, were adaptations of the pulp novel and don't connect to anything.
Much like with Zelda, the constant presence of reincarnation as a plot element and theme means that the presence of "timelines" are exactly as relevant or not-relevant as you choose to make it. Much like with Zelda, series fans (and I'll admit, myself included) spend a lot of time thinking seriously about it anyway.
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/19/11 at 07:22 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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Oh, also, two last bits - in Persona 4, when Chie mentions the Kuzunohas in reference to Naoto, that was only in the English translation, but even then implied it was a fictional program - if you consider the games contiguous, then the Kuzunohas certainly exist in that branch, as seen in Persona 2.
And P3P, of course, famously features Vincent from Catherine - a game which is not actually a MegaTen title, but is often lumped in with them due to themes and Vincent's presence - sometimes to its detriment, as there was apparently some minor fan outcry when they learned that the game was not an RPG.
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/21/11 at 02:00 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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More fun with history:
Mitsuru's father mentions that the Kirijo Group broke away from the Nanjo Group. That's the company owned by the father of Kei Nanjo, of Persona 1 & 2. Nanjo's father was on some level supporting the villain Kandori, who has is fingers in the plots of both (or rather, all three) of the earlier Persona titles. Mitsuru is essentially a combination of the characters of Nanjo and Eriko Kirishima, who were both Persona 1 characters who were also playable in Persona 2: EP.
Wondering where Aigis gets that lovely red ribbon she wears? Her backstory at the Kirijo Group labs (prior to the events that set off Persona 3) are told in a cell phone-only game that has never been imported to the US.
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 05:37 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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I'll stop listing facts (though I've plenty more) and get back to actual discussion.
I don't think that it can be understated what a significant break from formula Persona 3 was for Atlus. Not because the other games were traditional, boring, or unworthy of study - far from it! - but Persona 3, which is now regarded as something of a flagship for them here in the US, is so very different in design.
It's actually made things somewhat awkward for them, I think, in that this spin-off of a spin-off has come to eclipse a lot of what they've been doing for so long. Playing even Persona 2, the immediately previous entry in the same spin-off series track, is a different experience to the point where some people coming more recently to Atlus games do not care for it in the same way (this is the sort of division that happens in any long running series that adapts - look at Zelda fans by generation, or of course Final Fantasy gamers).
MOST games in the MegaTen series are known (aside from their difficulty) for having the demons (which serve, in Persona 3, as the Personas themselves) as active characters and/or battle encounters, and rely heavily on a "Negotiation" mechanic in order to recruit them into your party. Fusion, however, is still a constant - the Velvet Room is Persona-specific, but the mechanic has seen many other faces over the years, from the Jakyou to the Cathedral of Shadows, to Victor's Den, to the inbuilt COMP programs of Devil Survivor and Strange Journey.
MegaTen has its roots in cyberpunk, and the idea of demons and data being more or less the same has its roots not only in the earliest games in the franchise, but also the original pulp novels that inspired the series.
Before the PS2, most in-game travel was first-person, which is thought of primarily as a western RPG convention. The original Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Megami Tensei were all inspired by the earliest installments of Ultima, they were just inspired differently. Persona 1 was the last game to feature this first-person perspective, to the best of my knowledge, until Strange Journey (and, to a much lesser extent, Devil Survivor), on the DS. Much like many of these other changes, the shift to third person was done in order to make the games more approachable.
It's funny, when you think about it. Persona 3 is viewed as a niche title, a strange JRPG that does strange things, but it was arguably the most normalized game that the MegaTen team had ever put out, and responsible for shifting their focus because in part of how it caught on in the west (despite that audience being such a small comparative subset).
Persona 4, of course, was arguably even more popular, and is even more normalized - much more typical of the turn-based RPG that western audiences will tolerate. And Persona 4 has a lot of things to recommend it! The characters are much more fleshed out, the town feels more like a character of its own, the supporting characters are more important, and the story is arguably less predictable, but definitely lighter and more fun.
But I'd say that while Persona 4 may have more "fun" elements, and is an extraordinary game, it lost some of what made Persona 3 special. The solid throughline of its thematic message, the way that the game mechanics directly informed the story and the theme at each level, and its very uniqueness, which was of course lessened by the very existence of a similar sequel
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Wheels
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 05:58 AM | Reply with quote #8 |
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On a completely random note, Atlus released a new teaser site today
http://p-atlus.jp/
Seeing as the P4 amine already has a site, maybe a P4P? Who knows? XD The font and colour is definitely Persona 4-esque
And thanks for the history, I found it really interesting!
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 06:03 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
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It likely IS a P4P. When the 3DS was announced, Atlus claimed they were developing an SMT title, a Persona title, and a Devil Survivor title. The DS title, obviously, was DS: Overclocked - which arrived today!
The Persona title was always going to be a port or remake of some kind - the team was primarily working on Catherine - so this is almost certainly a P4P for the 3DS, with an announcement coming right about the time that the anime is released in Japan in October.
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Wheels
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 06:11 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Why a 3DS D: I went and got a Vita first, darn you Atlus!
Though I suppose at least the 3DS is cheap now XD Even though I already have P4 (I drove to the other side of Brisbane through floodzones to get it XD) I'd definitely grab P4P as well
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 06:49 AM | Reply with quote #11 |
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Well it looks like we might be getting a new 3ds anyway.
But yeah, p3 is a huge departure, after playing p4 I went and bought up all the ps2 and ones I could and of course strange journey... But had a mild interest in many of those RPGs before knowing their lineage...
It's quite amazing just how mainstream they made p3, and how it is a niche title like you said. |
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 12:15 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
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| I will probably buy Persona 4 Portable for whatever platform it comes out, but even though I already have a 3DS I'm kinda hoping for Vita...I want a "definitive" version of the game to play on a current-gen system. If it comes out for 3DS and is downgraded from the original like P3P arguably was, that would be a little disappointing...I'm kind of trying to retire my PS2 (well, backwards-compatible PS3), not buy new games for it. |
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Emie_R
Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 50
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| Posted 08/25/11 at 11:13 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Now's not the time to be dead.
Finished Catherine (more or less) this week and I had a really good time playing it. The block puzzles were very addictive and lingered on the brain--more than once I caught myself seeing block patterns in shower tile and building windows. Really fun.
I feel pretty ho-hum about the overall story. The explanation for the whole nightmare affair and mysterious deaths culminated into what I'll call a 'left-field' resolution--namely a resolution that doesn't necessarily follow from the plot. I thought I had the culprit nailed early on but I ended up surprised, and not in a good way because there was no good reason for the person who was actually the culprit to be the culprit. In fact the reason given was pretty lame...
Anyway, that there are so many different endings feels kinda arbitrary. I'm willing to bet that the majority of players end up in the neutral area of the red/blue meter. I didn't sense any real depth to the kind of character analysis the game presumably subjects the player to. So, one would likely have to intentionally work the questions in order to end up on one extreme or the other--it's pretty obvious which answer will put you on which side. No surprises here...
My favorite aspect of the story was saving the "sheep"--those periphery characters were far more interesting than the stars. I loved all the music except the stage levels (Babel excluded)--the classical mixes just didn't do it for me. But I just couldn't bring myself to mute the game and listen to something else because I loved the sheep cheering me on (Ridiculous; His climbing technique is crazy!) and the voices of the other climbers (I 'member dis...).
Not the best game ever but a lot of fun nonetheless.
Oh, and I better say something about P3 to stay topical: I think P3 does a much better job surprising you with respect to how the characters respond to your conversational choices. There.
O_o
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/26/11 at 05:54 AM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by thisyearsmodel
I will probably buy Persona 4 Portable for whatever platform it comes out, but even though I already have a 3DS I'm kinda hoping for Vita...I want a "definitive" version of the game to play on a current-gen system. If it comes out for 3DS and is downgraded from the original like P3P arguably was, that would be a little disappointing...I'm kind of trying to retire my PS2 (well, backwards-compatible PS3), not buy new games for it.
We're finding it impossible to retire our PS2, in no small part because of MegaTen titles. The Devil Summoner games, Nocturne, DDS: Avatar Tuner - these games are not all going to get remakes for the current gen.
On Catherine:
Quote: I feel pretty ho-hum about the overall story. The explanation for the whole nightmare affair and mysterious deaths culminated into what I'll call a 'left-field' resolution--namely a resolution that doesn't necessarily follow from the plot. I thought I had the culprit nailed early on but I ended up surprised, and not in a good way because there was no good reason for the person who was actually the culprit to be the culprit. In fact the reason given was pretty lame...
I thought the red herrings were pretty clever, in leading you to distrust the one person that you should have trusted from the beginning. In that respect, I found it much easier to sympathise with Vincent than some people did. The false (?!) hints that Katherine was a witch, she was controlling the ants, that she'd slept with Todd or with Jonny all contributed to a feeling of paranoia that made it harder to do the right thing.
Regarding the "twist" though: Did you complete all four stages of Babel? There is a "hidden ending" upon doing so that further corroborates the story that we're being told. The fact that Trisha is in fact Ishtar, that she was interested in Vincent to replace the Dumuzid, and that the Dumuzid had in fact been cheating on her, thus making him the largest hypocrite and balancing out the POV that he provides to the story really makes the little things click into place for me. Also, the alternate perspective provided by both versions of Rapunzel aided this view for me, as well. I'm just glad that it wasn't what I initially thought - for the first half, I was sure that the culprit was Katherine's unborn child!
Quote: Anyway, that there are so many different endings feels kinda arbitrary. I'm willing to bet that the majority of players end up in the neutral area of the red/blue meter.
On the contrary, despite our initial waverings, we had NO problem being all the way to the end of blue before we'd even reached the final night. If anything, I think it's harder to reach True Neutral - which is to say, True Freedom. What DID surprise me is that True Freedom is not any more or less valid than True Lover - generally in games from the MegaTen team, the neutral position is the most satisfying.
Did you play answering the questions as yourself, or as Vincent? This is very relevant to our discussion of Persona 3 - the separation between playing as yourself, or as P3's MC, who may have a different perspective from you, and how you resolve that issue.
Quote: My favorite aspect of the story was saving the "sheep"--those periphery characters were far more interesting than the stars.
What I liked about the "Sheep" is that, like the social links in Persona 3, your opinion of them in the early stages is very different than at the end. When the game began, I was much more concerned for Justin than some of the others, but by the time we were in the endgame, I really wanted Todd and Archie, most of all, to be okay.
And I cared quite deeply about Vincent's friends. The more time that you spend with them, the more you see that their issues are as significant as those of the other Sheep - which is why finding two of them on a landing towards the end caused me to panic - what if we hadn't done enough? In this respect, being able to see the trophies was a detriment - it made it clearer that they'd make it through okay.
I can at least say that I saw Erica's twist coming fairly early!
Quote: I loved all the music except the stage levels (Babel excluded)--the classical mixes just didn't do it for me.
Respectfully, I can't see how that's possible! Loved the mixes as much as anything else, I enjoy the mini-soundtrack collection of them, and it was nice to not be distracted heavily by the pop music (that I loved in the bar) while climbing.
And how great were the trophy award songs? A collection of MegaTen's greatest songs!
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 08/27/11 at 12:02 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Originally posted by Patchworkearth Quote: We're finding it impossible to retire our PS2, in no small part because of MegaTen titles. The Devil Summoner games, Nocturne, DDS: Avatar Tuner - these games are not all going to get remakes for the current gen.
Yeah, the idea of retiring my PS2 is pretty much a pipe dream. Even with all the HD remasters coming out (which I love), I don't foresee being able to play the more obscure Megami Tensei games or, say, the Fatal Frame series on any other hardware anytime soon. Oh well, there are definitely worse problems to have!
Now for something more on-topic: I thought Patchworkearth's reference to the "cyberpunk" nature of the early MT games was interesting, since it actually strikes me a little odd that the "digital demons" idea isn't more prominent in the Persona games. Much as I love all the occult imagery, I feel like cell phones and computers are much more natural frames of reference for teenage characters than tarot cards. Of course from what I understand this thread was picked up by the Devil Survivor games, so maybe it's good that Persona has its own "low-tech" approach to teenage demon collecting. (Side note: anybody think Persona might be making a cheeky reference to Pokemon cards?)
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Wheels
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 08/30/11 at 08:25 PM | Reply with quote #16 |
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http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/08/31/persona_developments/
A Persona 4 fighter...I don't know what to think about this...
And, Persona 4 remake to the Vita! This makes me happy XD
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Patchworkearth
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 131
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| Posted 08/30/11 at 09:01 PM | Reply with quote #17 |
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It appears, from what I've read, that the four announced fighters so far are Souji/Yu (the P4 main character), Chie, Yosuke.... and Aigis.
It's apparently got a story, written by the Atlus team, and takes place two years after P4.
This appears to be, at least in part, a way of addressing the loose ends that P3 and P4 have left hanging as the development of Persona 5 ramps up. These games have always worked best when they were able to stand up on their own, and filling P5 with a bunch of fan service plot connections would drag it down. This way, both audiences will get what they want.
It's possible, judging from this, that we may get additional resolution to Persona 3, as Persona 4 had hinted - making this worth discussing on this board, at least in the abstract.
(The fanboy in me wishes that the casts of all of the Persona games were available, MvC-style - I'd love to helm an all-Shadow team.)
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/30/11 at 09:11 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
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| Oh... Persona Fighter....
I LOVE fighting games, Arc systems has only really produced one dud fighter (battle phantasia) and... PERSONA! |
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Wheels
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 08/30/11 at 11:14 PM | Reply with quote #19 |
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I'm just looking at the scans now, it actually looks really interesting, and i'm not too much of a fighter person myself. I'll have to keep an eye on it. It looks like some of the stages are places like the back of the TV, Club Escapade, and maybe the shopping district? Some stage with a white piano too.
I can see Kanji in the character select screen too (Which is in the Velvet Room XD) and what could be Yukiko. Also looks like they're classing Aigis as Fool Arcana also.
And this Mary character, the new one for Persona 4, she kinda looks like a girly Naoto to me XD But, there's a shot with her with Souji at Junes, so it's not a female route, or what I was thinking, which was another Velvet Room resident, kinda like how Margaret showed up in P3P
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/31/11 at 12:16 AM | Reply with quote #20 |
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| Mmm, I'm looking forward to P4 golden though... I think the Persona games work better as handheld titles (despite our various issues with P3P).
But yes, you should keep an eye out on the fighter. Blazblue for all its faults was good about teaching you how it worked. A rare treat for fighters |
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Wheels
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 28
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| Posted 08/31/11 at 12:20 AM | Reply with quote #21 |
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Oh, and P4G (That's what Atlus are calling it XD) has the PS2 exploration, 3D model stuff, not P3P. I know I'd probably play my copy of P4 more than I do if I could take it with me places, and now they've done that 
I'm still holding out for a female route though, if only because they said that a highly requested feature is still yet to be announced XD
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 08/31/11 at 12:55 AM | Reply with quote #22 |
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| Mmm, given what they've done in p3 with it... Imagine P4 fem route... |
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thisyearsmodel
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 187
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| Posted 08/31/11 at 01:44 PM | Reply with quote #23 |
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Quote: Originally posted by Wheels
Oh, and P4G (That's what Atlus are calling it XD) has the PS2 exploration, 3D model stuff, not P3P.
Yes, SO excited by this. Now I can feel like I'm playing a "definitive" version when I finally play P4, and I won't have to take the bedroom TV away from my wife! It's pretty awesome to think that, assuming they remake or release the PSone Classic version of Eternal Punishment, you'll eventually be able to play all five current Persona games in some form on the Vita. (Admittedly, I set a pretty low bar for "awesome")
I'm not as excited about the fighting game but I can see it being cool, and I'm sure with Soejima Shigenori's art style it will at least be great to look at.
Now where the hell is the 3DS Persona they said they'd be making? I'm starting to get worried that all the third parties have bailed out after the 3DS's lackluster first few months...  |
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Emie_R
Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 50
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| Posted 09/21/11 at 02:03 AM | Reply with quote #24 |
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I think I'm a little ahead in P3 so I started playing Digital Devil Saga this week. This is my first time playing a SMT title other than those in the Persona series. I have to keep reminding myself that this game is all about the dungeon crawl and to be accepting of that. I do think that the story and characters are interesting, so wanting to see how things work out is keeping me going (and will probably keep me going into the sequel as well).
Other pluses: Meguro's soundtrack is amazing--it's less pop-y and more jazzy/contemporary than the P3 soundtrack. Also, it's oh-so-fun to battle a bunch of enemies from the P3 persona compendium like Nekomata, Apsaras and Valkyrie, just to name a few.
O_o
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link6616
Moderator
Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 254
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| Posted 09/21/11 at 02:18 AM | Reply with quote #25 |
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| I've been spending a bit of time with Strange Journey on my commutes in tandem with this playthrough. It's interesting just how well Megaten works even without the clever ways to get around tedium that Persona 3 and 4 perfected.
Although, what is really interesting is just how similar many of the core elements to each megaten game is, almost to a dragon quest level... Yet megaten constantly uses new settings or ways to go about the same thing. Be it DDS's karmas and more FFX like plot structure, to SJ direct thieving of Etrian Odyssey's engine for it's own devious needs, and then of course the classic Persona 1 also a party battling dungeon crawler but with demon swapping possible for all...
One of the big things I think you miss in both P3/4 and DDS though is the negotiation aspect, which was always interesting an amusing despite also being just as annoying at times.
I just got my hands on Persona 2 today though... and for some reason I'm more disapointed in it than Persona 1... |
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