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brainygamer

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Posted 10/16/09 Reply with quote  #1 
Post your thoughts on Mission 2 here.
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sys2061

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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #2 
(Not sure how we write these things up around here, so pardon my rambling!)

I tackled the first real mission last night, floundering around lost, until I decided to replay the tutorial and rediscovered the in-game map ('M'). Note to self: don't play the tutorial a week and a half before starting the game proper, you'll just forget.

After that, I got through most of the level using the map and compass, trying to work out if North = Up on the map. I'm still not sure if it was. In the process of checking the compass, I fell from the top of the stairs, and surprised myself by surviving without a scratch. Then I surprised myself even more by killing myself the same way two minutes later!

About five minutes before the end, I realised that the map does in fact highlight the room you are in, in blue. Which is really handy, when you know about it... (I thought blue meant the pool. Duh.)

By the way, if anyone has trouble getting out of the waterway, try putting your weapon away, even if the world's largest spiders are waiting for you. That really had me stumped, as did my attempts to climb the ladder out of the sewers. Kind of took me out of the game.

Anyway, as for the game itself, I did feel bad about the guards I killed - I'm a thief, not a murderer! When things went pear-shaped and I had to defend myself, I was thinking "A pro like Garrett would never let it come to this..."

Hmm. Perhaps I should try a harder difficulty setting. Considering my bumbling career so far, if it turns out that I *am* just a common murderous thief, I can always go back to Normal difficulty!
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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #3 
Just finished the tutorial, and first mission proper, after getting the game properly patched up for XP. A few initial thoughts:
  1. I found the game a pleasure to look at, partially thanks to the fact that I got it running on my laptops native resolution, in widescreen. The textures and models are a bit dated perhaps, but all the care that went into them shows (like watching the original Star Wars movies).
  2. The environment was great: loved the open feel of it, and the intricacies of the castle--even if it was  a bit spartan in terms of decoration.
  3. Really enjoyed the sneaky thief aspect, and having to stay in the shadows, etc., though on Normal difficulty, I found, by the end of the level, the need I felt to be sneaky was more self-imposed than game-imposed (by the end, to test this theory, I started charging around and just killing people who got in my way): will perhaps try a harder mode next time.
  4. The technical aspects of "sneaking" were very impressive: the shadow/light difference, and the sound factor (both in terms of the sound my character made, and the ability of the guards to hear it, and also the environmental sound, which was always perfectly directional and 3-dimensional, using stereo headphones).
  5. I wasn't overly impressed by the guards' actual sensory perception/intelligence (sometimes they couldn't see me when I thought they should be able to, etc.), but part of that may have come from the difficulty setting. 
  6. Enjoyed overhearing conversations.
Looking forward to playing the rest of the game (Gold, in my case), and hearing others' thoughts. Cheers.

P.S. @sys2061: it also took me a while to figure out that the map was actually highlighting where I was, which does make a considerable difference.
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alanslipp

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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #4 
I love Bafford's manor. This level is a walk in the park compared to later levels, even on Expert difficulty. All the guards are pretty isolated and don't cross paths, so coshing them on the back of the head and dragging them out of sight is pretty simple. A few tricky areas near the treasure room itself, but nothing like what comes later in the game.

"They don't make bears like they used to." Too true.

In response to both Jordan and sys2061, Normal difficulty is actually Thief's easy mode. Fewer objectives and enemies than Hard or Expert, but most importantly, it doesn't penalize you for killing guards (killing non-human enemies is ok, as is liberal use of the blackjack). Having played Thief 1 and 2 a few times (not completely, mind you) as well as games like Deus Ex and No One Lives Forever, I feel pretty confident in tackling Expert. Give it a shot - I think it encourages more exploration (and the attendant risk, of course).
Kloreep

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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #5 
This is a pretty fun level. As alanslipp says, later ones are harder; but for someone just getting into the game, this level has plenty of challenges. I can't say it was a walk in the park for me either despite lots of Thief playing in the past. While there is plenty of shadow, noise got me in trouble plenty of times. That tiled hallway on the second floor is a killer.

Expert difficulty will indeed prevent you from killing humans, so if you want to be held to the quote Michael posted that's the one to play on. ("Violence is the mark of the amateur. Don't kill anyone." Which I think may actually come from the text of one of the Expert level objectives.) Mind you, you'll also have your loot minimums increased, and you'll often have more side tasks to accomplish. Those really just encourage you to explore the level thoroughly, though; as long as you have the time, I don't think these extra objectives are onerous.

If you're like me, though - an impatient and not entirely competent thief - I think you may find Expert changes the game experience in other ways. On Normal, you can actually try things out, like Jordan did seeing what he could accomplish with the sword. If you fail or there are unexpected consequences, you can generally survive them by, at worst, killing. Expert is a different story: combat is a useless way to engage a guard, because if anyone dies, you lose. This means that if you alert a guard, you have two options: find a really good hiding place and wait for minutes, or reload. If you're impatient like me, you just start defaulting to the latter most of the time, especially because being discovered can cascade to surrounding guards pretty quickly. And reloading all the time changes the game experience for me; essentially, it breaks the idea that I'm some sort of master thief, since I'm getting into irretrievably bad situations fairly regularly.

For now, I think I'll return to Bafford's one more time before moving on and try to force myself to stop this whole reloading thing. (Unless I die, that is; I'm not trying to pull a Ben Abraham. As I said, I'm not nearly that good at thiefing.)
CrashT

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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #6 
Even in this first mission there are some level design concepts that would never be seen today, like the two ground floor corridors on either side of the building being basically identical, a circumstance that confused the hell out of me for five minutes.

On the otherside though the upper corridors, surrounding Bafford's "Throne Room", are a great example of using sound.The corridors are tiled with a number of carpeted areas, if you stand in the darkness and listen you can heard the change in the sound of the guards footsteps and use that to work out where everybody is.

To those new to Thief I would recommend not getting too used to the maps, some of the ones for later missions are vague to the point of comical.

I'm playing on Expert, and I must say that I really like that one of the objectives is always to return to the outside again, it's not just a case of getting in, you then have to get out again. I know this is a specific requirement unique to Expert on this mission but can't remember what the Normal, and Hard objectives are on the later missions.
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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #7 
It's been a while since I've played through Thief (a *long* while), but nearly everything's reminding me why it's so well-regarded. I'd forgotten the horror overtones to the game, which are somewhat baked in to the expressionist models and low-res textures of the Quake engine. But they really lend a sense of dread (and engagement) to the stealth elements.

The arcane aspects of the fiction are almost non-existent in Bafford's Manor. Even so, the imposing music and great sound design impress how threatening the entire environment seems. This works best for me when avoiding alerted guards--on Hard, even though I know I can survive a fight if I play it correctly, I've shouted at the screen (usually something like "Run, you bastard. Run!") more than once after being spotted.

The basic, somewhat glitchy AI breaks the tension with a few bad spots, though. I had some difficulty grabbing the throne room key from the patrolling guards (those tiles, ack!), and was forced to hide in the bathhouse to avoid them. I crouched, hoping the guards would go back on patrol, but they seemed perpetually stuck on alert. Eventually, one of the guards bumped into me, but the AI acted as if I were just another bath stool. Oh well.

Oh, and I don't know whether this is unique to Gold, but I'm playing on Hard and I also had escaping the manor as an objective. I agree, though--it is a great addition. I felt a sense of ownership passing through all of the rooms, obstacles, and splayed-out guards that I'd passed/conquered/blackjacked on my way through.
davidcarlton

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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #8 
I had the same experience with the map!  And, in general, I felt like I was on the verge of getting lost a lot; I have a hard time imagining feeling quite the same way in a physical house, but I guess virtual spaces don't activate the automatic mapping portions of my brain strongly enough.  (And now that I've gotten used to the map, I'm not looking forward to the brief peek of the map that I got on the next level that made it look very vague indeed.)

I was going to comment that it was odd that people didn't notice the unconscious bodies lying around, but reading others' comments makes me think that I just got lucky with that, and I should stash them out of sight in the future?  It was certainly odd that the guard in front of the throne room was completely blase when one light after another went out, though.  Not that I fault them from a game design perspective, it's not obvious to me how to handle that better.

As somebody who freaks out when confronted with inventory constraints, I was glad that I was never anywhere near running low on inventory during this level.  To a newcomer, the item purchase screen at the start of the level serves only to frustrate - how on earth am I supposed to know what I'll be wanting more of over the course of the level?  So I guess I'll just hope for now that the game will give me enough of what I need at the start of the level that I just shouldn't buy anything at all...

I'm glad that I didn't run into any of the technical problems that I had during the training level; hopefully that luck will continue.
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Posted 10/18/09 Reply with quote  #9 
Well, trying to limit reloading was an interesting experience. I didn't end up following my own rule, because there were still plenty of situations I knew I wasn't getting out of; but I did have an entertaining few rounds of hide and seek with the guards. It adds an extra element to have to worry not just about where you can hide further ahead, but where you might be able to retreat to get some breathing room.

This did expose some of that AI glitchiness megameta was talking about, though. I didn't have any trouble with guards who wouldn't settle down, but mine settled down a bit easily, and they did so after spending quite a lot of time walking into walls. I think the AI just isn't cut out for the space I used - one of those circular rooms with a table in the middle. The guard was never smart enough to do a complete circle, which would have easily bumped it into me, especially if his comrade had come from the other direction. Things like this, as well as intended elements of the AI like perpetual unconcern with torches going out, do feel "gamey" and work against the efforts I think are made elsewhere to suspend disbelief. (I believe that in Thief 2 they had the guards remark on any unlit torches they passed, but the game design remained the same - no actual change in behavior.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcarlton
As somebody who freaks out when confronted with inventory constraints, I was glad that I was never anywhere near running low on inventory during this level.  To a newcomer, the item purchase screen at the start of the level serves only to frustrate - how on earth am I supposed to know what I'll be wanting more of over the course of the level?  So I guess I'll just hope for now that the game will give me enough of what I need at the start of the level that I just shouldn't buy anything at all...


I think you'll have a better idea as you see more of the game and use more of the equipment. Though to some degree the confusion is intended, I'm sure - like with the "tips" you can sometimes buy, but which you can never be sure how useful or necessary they might be unless you actually purchase them.
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Posted 10/19/09 Reply with quote  #10 
The torch issue is a continuing one for the Thief series though they are better in the sequel. The first guards you meet in Thief 2 comment on the torch you put out in front of them, but neither one is willing to put in the effort to light it again; later on you get gas lamps which will be relit by guards.

The gold you acquired in the previous mission is used to fund the equipment for the next one, but that doesn't carry forward. There's no real downside to not purchasing equipment. As you get further in you'll get a better idea of the type of arrows you'll be using most of, depending on your playstyle, so it becomes easier to decide what to purchase. Most of my money goes automatically to Water Arrows and Moss Arrows when they become available.
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oozo

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Posted 10/19/09 Reply with quote  #11 
Exploring Bafford's again after all these years surely felt a bit like coming home - I spent literally uncounted hours in this level alone back in the day. It was the demo, see, and the game didn't make it too clear if you actually achieved all your objectives by just laying your hands on the scepter or not. Thus, I tried to better my play time and again, in the end ending up in some sort of "ghosting" avant la lettre.
Didn't have too much trouble finding my way for the very same reason - I agree that constructing two wings of a manor symmetrically might seem like a glitch from a game design-point of view. I do wonder, though, if the architecture - especially in this level - is not kind of believable seen from an architectural, real world perspective. Also, some nice details and immersive story-telling going on in books, scrolls etc. that can very easily be overlooked. They contribute to the somewhat quirky sense of humor of the game, in every case.

Alas, the times of finding my way through corridors swift as a ghost are long gone - I found myself sucking at thieving around again. Thus said, I was first of all impressed by how ok the graphics still look (at least once you've patched the hell out of them). It is no beauty, to be sure, but it still conceives the - literally - dark undertones of the whole Thief-setting quite well, even after all this time. (I had to set the gamma-shifter to absolute darkness, though, to find it convincing.)

First thing I found peculiar was the fact that the game has two walking speeds, one on "w", the other one on "s" on default-setting. How many games do have that going for them?! Or, rather, not going, I soon had to adjust it the FSP-way, walking slowly by pressing shift and walking backwards with the "s" button - I am only writing this because I just remembered how crucial stepping back and waiting in the shadows in this game can be - one of the reasons why I fell in love with it. It's that predator-like feeling, and on the same time a feeling of vulnerability: When you get the moment right, you're pretty much invincible. One wrong step, though, and you're dog meat (as the guards eloquently put it).
That's what's so bitterly missing in Arkham Asylum's stealth-play - the feeling of being chased in chasing.

One thing I realized now, just as I already did ten years ago, a thing that some people have already brought up:
The AI is not very convincing, and I sometimes kinda like it. I didn't remember the guards being that bloodhound-like - once they have picked up your trail, or even only your sound, they sometimes seem to be magically or magnetically drawn to the very place I'm hiding in, even though in the logic of the game, they shouldn't have no chance of seeing me at all. In other moments, they could not have cared less about doors they found rightly to have been opened by somebody who didn't belong there, and, yes, the torches.

The remarkable thing IMHO seems not to be the lack of a convincing AI, though, but how readily almost everyone who plays Thief accepts it - suspension of disbelief at its best. I mean, it's all too easy to make the AI (or the lack of it) work for your purposes, if that's what you want. Strangely, though, it was not so much what I wanted to. I played on "Hard", but I did not kill anybody (don't play on "Expert" because I don't like strolling around the levels for one more golden mirror or something when everything - inside the game-world as well as my own - is telling me that it would be so much better to call it a day). I even tried not to snuff out any unnecessary torches or leave doors open, because, well, that's what Garret would do - it's easy to see why somebody would come up with the idea of "ghosting".
Ironically, Thief seems to provoke a more deeply felt want to role-play than most RPGs do. I am not too sure yet of how Looking Glass achieved that - I guess it has to do as much with the narrative wrapping as the actual presentation and game play -, but I hope to find out more about it while playing it with you guys.

PS Broke the role-playing in the end because I wasn't patient enough to find the way back up in the sewers (even though I made it all the way back there). So, instead, I systematically took out one guard after another near the main-gate, until I could just jump and run my way past the last two remaining ones, out of the gate, and into the city. Guess that's one thing that Garret wouldn't do for sure. And I would have been grateful if the designers could have let me jump out of one of the numerous windows they let me parade by during the course of the level anyway.
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Posted 10/19/09 Reply with quote  #12 
I didn't mean my comment about the identical corridors to be a negative, it was an unusual surprise to actually get lost in a location. Especially as I too have spent a lot of time in Bafford's Castle in the past.

What made me realise that I must have been in the wrong corridor was that the exit to the street was not where I expected it. In the middle of one of the corridors is a passage under the stairs leading to a portcullis. A lever on the wall opens it allowing access to the street and enabling you to complete the escape the castle objective.

There are a number of these shortcut exits in the later levels which can make exiting the environment easier; if you can find them of course.
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Posted 10/20/09 Reply with quote  #13 
@CrashT: Just wanted to reply to your comment above (and agree with you), regarding the "get back out" objective, on Hard difficulty. I played through the level on Normal, and was quite surprised when it ended immediately, as I seized the staff. The most immediate problem here was that I had just confronted the throne room guard, who had actually struck the gong and sounded the alarm just before I killed him. I was thinking to myself that shoot, I had completed the objective of getting the staff, but would I actually be able to get back out alive? Then the level ended, leaving me surprised, and feeling a bit robbed (if only of my own death).

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MoriartyL

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Posted 10/22/09 Reply with quote  #14 
It seems I'm not qualified to join this playthrough. I'm playing on the lowest difficulty setting, and I can't seem to beat this first level. Granted, I've only tried it twice so far, but each time I spend something like twenty minutes getting in slowly and cautiously only to be seen by someone whose existence I wasn't aware of as I walk through a room which I thought was empty. (The reason I've only played it twice so far is that after going through this tense experience and then getting caught I really don't want to jump back in for a while.) I don't think for a second that this is something the game's doing wrong, I think it's just that I'm really bad at it. So I probably should just give up. But I'd like to give it one more shot first. Can anyone give me any tips on how to not get noticed?
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brainygamer

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Posted 10/22/09 Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
But I'd like to give it one more shot first. Can anyone give me any tips on how to not get noticed?

Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, MoriartyL, but are you sticking to the shadows and observing the movements and conversations of the guards? If you take your time and move from shadow to shadow - or lurk in the shadows to take out guards one at a time - you ought to be able to progress to your objective. You can also often run away and hide if a guard locates you, and he'll soon assume he must have been seeing things. ;-)

Even the easiest mode in this game requires an approach that many gamers aren't used to. The priority is on things that aren't much in vogue in today's FPS games: quiet movement, patience, careful listening, and a willingness to go slowly.

I don't know if this will be helpful to you, but I hope so.
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brainygamer

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Posted 10/22/09 Reply with quote  #16 
Just for fun, I played this level "run and gun" on normal mode with no regard for being stealthy. I made it about two-thirds through, killing guards and hiding their bodies. Eventually, the game had its way with me, and I wasn't able to succeed with this strategy. Maybe I might have succeeded with more attempts, but one try this way was enough.

I'm intrigued by the way the game actively discourages a certain approach and encourages another, while never prohibiting or forcing anything. It's as if the game says to the player, "If you think you can succeed that way, go ahead and try. And good luck with that, buddy." In terms of game design, it would have been easy for Looking Glass to be much more prescriptive and limiting, but instead the player is free to choose different approaches, including those that challenge the game's precepts, and fail or succeed on those terms.

Ultimately, stealth feels natural; feels rewarding; feels satisfying because the player chooses his path and discovers his own way, among a myriad of options. When the stealthy tool is the one that makes me feel smart and clever, that's the tool I want to use. And when I can occasionally "outsmart" the game by using a tool the game seems to discourage me from using...that's great fun too.
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Posted 10/22/09 Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
the game actively discourages a certain approach and encourages another...


Wow, I wish I'd said some of that, brainygamer. The game does seem quite open, both in terms of the map (hence my getting lost so much) and in the options it gives you in gameplay approach, even while it encourages you to be vewwy vewwy quiet. (Sorry!)

MoriartyL, are you sure you have the sound turned up enough? I usually heard the grumbling/drunken singing of the guards in time to hide myself. And I used the extra-slow walking a lot - not the run key, not the walk key, but the walk key plus the Shift key, which is even slower. That, and I walked around with my sword drawn just in case, since I'm not that good at stealth either!
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Posted 10/22/09 Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
It seems I'm not qualified to join this playthrough. I'm playing on the lowest difficulty setting, and I can't seem to beat this first level. Granted, I've only tried it twice so far, but each time I spend something like twenty minutes getting in slowly and cautiously only to be seen by someone whose existence I wasn't aware of as I walk through a room which I thought was empty.


I think the posts above have given some good advice about the gameplay, so I don't have much more to add. I just want to add that if you went twenty minutes without making a save, maybe that could change; the Quick Save is your friend. Just make sure to retreat into the shadows and stand still for a few seconds so you can be sure you aren't saving into a bad situation.

Oh, I do have one thing to add for gameplay: try a heavier approach. While Thief does encourage stealth, what kind of stealth is up to you. If you're good at maintaining a constant vigil, then sure, you can always try sneaking past people. But if you find you're better at sneaking up right next to people the one time, then don't be afraid to use the blackjack. There usually aren't that many people in a level who are impossible to ambush, so by blackjacking, you can "clear" areas of people and be more confident walking around in them - just make sure you hide the body in an area that you know is already cleared. In short, take care of the guards first, and only worry about looting a place once you've made a sweep of the area and have the place to yourself, so to speak. (It sounds like you may have done some of this already, but if the "constant vigil" thing isn't your thing, think of it as a truly bifurcated two-part job: first you have a stalking game where you put everyone's lights out, then you have a find-the-hidden-loot game.)
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Posted 10/23/09 Reply with quote  #19 
It's important to remember that you are more visible if you have your sword or bow drawn than if you are wielding the blackjack or have your hands free. If your natural inclination is to move around with a weapon drawn this could be causing problems as it would make hiding more difficult.

On any difficulty level other than Expert it's not likely that you'll fail a mission for being spotted or getting into a fight so sometimes running away or eliminating troublesome guards might be a more useful approach. As the game progresses you'll find additional tools, Speed Potions, Flash Bombs etc., become available that can make evasion a more useful tactic.
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MoriartyL

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Posted 10/23/09 Reply with quote  #20 
Thanks for all the tips. The saving thing is probably the most useful. I'll try it again.
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Fae

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Posted 10/23/09 Reply with quote  #21 
This level is essentially a tutorial, even if it doesn't seem like one at first. There's a smooth increase in difficulty throughout, with the areas you move through gradually becoming brigher, louder, and more well-patrolled. There are a few hidden corners, things for an explorer to find, a (one-way) secret passage that lets you skip the hardest spot, multiple paths throughout most of the level, but overall, it's pretty straightforward. The training level taught you what to do when you're being given instructions; this level teaches you what to do when you're not.

Having played this a couple times before, I'm trying to go through on Expert without reloading often. I had some trouble on the tiled floor, alerted a couple guards, but I had enough flashbombs that they weren't a problem. (Anyone under the blinding effect of a flashbomb can be knocked out, even if they've been alerted.)

I'm not very fond of the architecture in this level. Even though it's pretty small, it manages to be more disorienting than most of the later levels.

This level also does little to show off the game's setting. There are a couple bits of foreshadowing, but nothing that would stand out to a new player. The scepter you steal does provide a nice way to lead into the next level, but the elements that form the basis of the setting's overarching conflict haven't been seen yet. It's not a bad level, but I find it somewhat forgettable.
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Posted 10/24/09 Reply with quote  #22 
Finished this mission today. Took me 48 minutes. Well, actually a bit more: 48 minutes is what the game reported, but I reloaded a few saves when things didn't go the way I wanted. I should mention that this is my first playthrough ever of this game. Also, I'm not a PC gamer; I've been a console gamer all my life. So, it's been interesting in terms of adjusting to playing with a mouse and keyboard.

At this point of my life I've already played many stealth games, so I found myself comfortable with all the concepts and game conventions (sticking to the shadows, being silent, sneaking and attacking from behind).

As with other stealth games I've played before, I don't like killing the enemies, because I think that takes part of the challenge, or takes from the spirit of the game. So, in this game as well, well in this mission, I didn't kill anyone. This is where the save files came into play. Whenever I failed to sneak on a guard, and he discovered me, I considered that a 'game over', or mission failed, and reloaded the latest save file. This happened in particular with the second to last guard, which I found a little tricky to find the best way to sneak on him, because of the noisy tiles on the floor. You have to remain on the very small portions that are carpeted, so it's a bit tricky... took me a few tries. But I felt great when I pulled it off.

The last guard was similar, but didn't really take much effort. This is where I noticed something interesting on the game, which is a flaw most stealth games have (except for, probably, Metal Gear Solid series): at some point, the guard was standing right next to me, and didn't see me because my stealth indicator was full. So, obviously, as soon as he turned around, I knocked him out :-)

So far I have only one gripe with this game: I wish it had, somewhere in the menu, a display of the controls layout, and all the available actions. I had to open a browser window pointing to website that the controls for this game, because there's just no way to find out in-game. Unless, of course, you start just pressing random keys. This is what I'd do in a console game... but on this game the amount is key is significantly larger. I'd like a display somewhere that tells me all the available actions and the keys. I'm sure the original manual would have that info, but the copy I got from SoldOut.com didn't come with a manual. Also, the tutorial doesn't really show you all the available actions, just the basic ones. For example, it would have been nice to know how to drop items you pick up. Before I figured this out, I was just throwing them to get rid of them, which often alerted a guard :-P

About the game in general, I love the atmosphere. Graphics are actually very good... wasn't expecting that from this game, being that it is a little old. Background music sets the tone appropriately. And I love the smirky remarks from the main character :-) I like his personality.

Well, that's my take on this mission, and initial impressions about the game.
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Kloreep

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Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 294
Posted 10/24/09 Reply with quote  #23 
apoloimagod: Have you found the keymapping option in the Options menu? You can see the keys for most basic actions there, and re-map them if you like. Mind you, this still misses the keys you can't change. Most of the important ones are mappable, but a few are not. (F11 = Quicksave. Wish I had figured that one out sooner. )
apoloimagod

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Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 44
Posted 10/25/09 Reply with quote  #24 
@Kloreep no, I don't think I've found that yet... I'll check for it, though like mentioned, I found this page that has all the action key mappings, I just keep it open while I play (and yeah, it also mentions the quicksave key :-)).
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Nelson

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 95
Posted 10/25/09 Reply with quote  #25 
Finally finished this (Hard mode). 50 minutes played, probably a total of 2.5 hours of loading, retrying, etc. I'm stubborn about reloading when things go bad; in particular here I'm trying to never kill guards or get into combat. Blackjack is OK though. Mostly easy in this level except the last 3 guards. I was doing an elaborate thing with the last guard, by the scepter, jumping from carpet to carpet and flinging arrows into the distance to distract the guard. Must have taken 30 minutes to finally get it right.

Playing this through again I realize that this one level encompasses most of what Thief has to teach us. All the sound design, the lighting, the stealth, the patrol AI. My memory is the game never changes much from this other than the extra possibilities rope arrows offer. A bit surprising how many gameplay innovations they put in this one level.

Some frustrations, but the game has held up pretty well. I'd say the map design is the one thing that feels old school, I must have gotten lost like six times in corridors that all looked alike. The sound design continues to impress me mightily. I do wish I could see my feet, to see just where the carpet ends and the tile ends. I also wish I could make the movies work, no amount of trying has helped.

I'd love to see this game remade in a modern engine. Thief: Source, or something. I imagine the porting of the AI and sound systems would be a lot of work though. In some sense the Hitman series of games are the spiritual successor of Thief, you can play through the levels with the exact same attention to stealth.
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