DexJackson
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 12
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| Posted 02/11/11 at 01:59 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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One thing I've never understood with Deus Ex and Deus Ex Invisible War is that there is so much controversy and hate surrounding the latter's take on the original's world. I really don't get it and judigng by discussions I've read/taken part in at various points in the past on other forums and in real-life, the majority of people who have played Deus Ex and then moved on to Invisible War -- whether they've completed the original or not -- then decry it almost as some sort of abortion of gaming. And when any attempt to semi-seriously discuss "why" that is, those very same people are reluctant to talk about the game any further.
This is bizzare for me for two reasons:
1) Deus Ex's gameplay elements are not orignal in any way whatsoever and all have been copied or modified primarily from System Shock 2.
2) There are argubly far more flaws in Deus Ex's execution as a game than there are in Invisible War's.
The first time I played Deus Ex I would have been, hmmm, around let's say 10 or 11 years old? I was obviously too young to understand much of the subtext, hidden meanings, ploys and the more philisophical conversations between characters but even then I was kind of entranced by the game's setting and it's atmosphere as a whole. It was the audio within the game that sold me on playing it 'til I lost interest (first time after Hong Kong-- awwww ;-) ); the voice acting, the ambient effects but especially the soundtrack and it was that same audio that kept me playing along-- which I realised little over a few months ago has been an recurring theme for many of the games I've played over time.
Apart from that, though, Deus Ex was a pretty shitty example of how to make a game. Certainly not one of worst compared to others but when I try to play it now, I realise in part how much I liked it because of my age at the time (heh, was technically not allowed to, but anyway). Deus Ex was a game composed of many several concepts made redundant by their execution in the game and few good parts when taken apart and examined. A game lauded by many for reasons no-one could truely understand nor reason with -- even now, a whole decade later -- and yet it deserved such praise only for popularising the fairly new idea of the Action RPG genre.
Invisible War, however, was a more solid example of how to make a game actually "work". By condensing down and streamlining certain, unecessarily convoluted or complicated features and functionality as well as making a more conherrent plot and having a more intimate environment in which to play in, Ion Storm managed to make a game that was more plesant to play and experience than it's predecessor
Unfortunately, this was completely cast aside in favour of the oft-popular opinion -- which a sizeable proportion of people seemed to follow without even having played the full game or demo -- that the game was a sham and an insult to the supposed "values" or "ideas" that were apparently set by the original Deus Ex-- even though they were actually set by System Shock 2.
Since my last attempt at playing Deus Ex -- a little over a year ago or about that -- I have been examining that game in my head on-and-off every now and again and comparing it to Invisible War -- which I last played just a little while after the original -- and have found more to dislike about the former than I have the latter. So what's up with that?
Well, in the words of JC, pre-Helios transfusion, "What a shame"
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AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
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| Posted 02/14/11 at 05:52 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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You're comparing games which are so widely apart though; and also doing it in a backhanded way of criticising one saying it is "popularising an idea" and saying the other is "solid" right after as if these are comparable.
I mean, well, sure, any recent FPS is "solid" (what does that even mean?! that it doesn't crash when you fire a gun at a target?). That's the thing; Deus Ex: Invisible War was basically a shooter, while Deus Ex had a lot more RPG elements and actual worthwhile conversations and agency and choice; hell for most of the game you don't need to even shoot a gun.
I recall the main choice in Invisible War essentially boiled down to which ending faction you wanted to win in the last level; nothing previous to that affected the plot (every NPC was invincible if they needed to be there at the end), and you could simply choose to be on another side.
Also the fact is Invisible War was just...boring. Especially plot wise (I mean seriously; it doesn't make any sense but a literal Knight Templar organisation that is obviously evil? seriously? they are forcing it all? and it is obvious from the start? *yawn*). I remember playing it and I didn't even bother finishing it because the final levels were so stupidly hard (with enemies you can't sneak past nor easily kill), and previous levels didn't exactly scream "stellar AI" and "lots of choice" or "interesting characters and plot". Nothing hooked me in further then progressing the plot - and after the final level revelation it just turned out not worth it! I looked up the ending videos on Youtube  (I liked the one where everyone turned into those guys with masks, man, they had an option in to kill everyone in case you hated the game! wow!)
It was passable for sure, but I'm not going to replay it ever. For solid shooters I'd go back to the original Call of Duty games, Republic Commando, or if I wanted some RPG stuff on top of a shooter like Invisible War's, Mass Effect has it basically covered. Invisible War was a boring execution of a tried and tested genre; removing much of the available actions and design of the original for more confined levels, FPS run and gun gameplay and barely any RPG mechanics or choices of things to do. FPS gameplay was pretty crap too I recall.
I think if you go back and actually read criticisms of the game you will find out not everyone wants a half-hearted RPG/shooter which is not good at either, with levels that were scaled down for a absent console release with a plot which after a passable introduction lives off linearity, shooter mechanics and a ramp up in difficulty at the end that makes you cringe, with no real plot to make it worthwhile.
Being solid alone doesn't make a good game. This is a tested example even if you ignore the original Deus Ex and just compare it to other games. "What a shame" indeed.
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DexJackson
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 12
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| Posted 02/16/11 at 05:01 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by AndrewArmstrong
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But...but...but they are comparable. I said so. ( ;-) )
Heh heh. Away from joking, though, you're using a similar -- though oddly polarised -- argument to me. You say (essentially), "what does solid mean?" I say (essentially, too), "experience must not come at expense of gameplay".
These are comparable, of course, simply because there are many redudant and widely unused or unfulfilled aspects of Deus Ex in comparison. such as the list of augmentations almost in entirety and then a skill set with which at least two or three skills are there almost as if for "trying out" purposes. Heck, one of the only augmentations worth getting in the original was the strength enhancer becasue it did what it said on the tin-- and even then it wasn't fufilled as much as it could have been, as a sort of "path making" tool maybe?.
With Invisible War, such aspects are either modified heavily, streamlined or taken away entirely. Namely, that there are no skills but "biomods" which represent a specific selection of skills and abillities if you want them in your character build. This provides an amount of flexibility and sense of adaptibility -- especially since you are a `plug 'n' play` person in context of the game's world -- greater than could arguably ever be felt in the original Deus Ex.
(hopefully that answers your conjucture on "solidness"-- as in, gameplay that actually works within the game's context itself :-) )
Now here's where the arguments against Invisible War in favour of Deus Ex starts to get, well...ermm, "whoops":
"conversations and agency and choice"
Uhhhh...I didn't realise conversations and, err..."agency", had anything to do with gameplay? Ermm, right?
As far as I understand it -- and to keep the post clean ;-) -- the logic of it takes the following:
Deus Ex had in-depth plot. Invisible War had in-depth plot. Deus Ex had many conversations. Invisible War had many conversations. Deus Ex had many RPG elements. Invisible War had few RPG elements. Deus Ex had few well-developed skills and abilities. Invisible War had several very useful and flexible "skills packages". Therefore, Deus Ex is the better game.
Sounds fair, right? Now here's where the real logic of the argument comes in:
Deus Ex had in-depth plot. Invisible War had few complex RPG elements. Therefore, Deus Ex is the better game.
Wait, what?
(and that's what I thought at first, too!)
*reads 4th and 5th paragraph for the 3rd time*
Now here's where things just get plain, all-out silly (not you, of course, the general argument as used by everyone who does, including you...which...ermm...doesn't really exclude you but it will do... /:-) ). I'm actually reading those two paragraph and thinking to myself...
"But...but...but Deus Ex didn't have stellar AI...and it didn't have lots of choice...and it didn't have very many interesting characters but mainly lots and lots of `extras`..."
And then you get to talking about the endings which makes me think (these are pure, unedited thoughts, by the way ;-) ): "But Deus Ex's endings were simple `EPIC ENDGAME` ones that you would find in any one action movie released today` whereas Invisible War's endings were all anti-hero endings that meant that someone, somewhere, sometime at some point was going to be screwed and it was the ending that chose who got screwed and how screwed they would be."
Really, when you get to looking at those endings, Invisible War's are far deeper/harsher than the original's. The Templar one, for instance, is horrifying because it illustrates mass genocide that targets any even slightly bio-modified beings, their supporters and protectors as well as serious societal regression will happen. Even Deus Ex doesn't deal with themes that grim and bleak!
(also, the Templars in Deus Ex aren't a literal, modern-day reincarnation of the Knights of the Temple of Solomon, as far as I remember. I could be wrong, of course)
And the FPS combat was even worse in Deus Ex! A trained, nanoenhanced (in the case of Deus Ex) should be able to shoot straight right from the start, no? Oh, holy biomods, I'm starting to realise the arguments aganist Invisible War are insanely flawed!
Does not make sense.
Oh dear.
*starts to think Deus Ex really doesn't have anything decent going for it, apart from atmosphere...atmosphere for crying out loud!*
P.S. Republic Commando was a great tactical shooter, however.
P.P.S. Arguing a difficulty hike aganist one game in favour of another that had several of them is never a good idea, so I left that one ;-)
P.P.S.H. Just becase (it's the name of a gun).
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AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
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| Posted 02/17/11 at 07:26 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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I'm still hopelessly confused why you think Invisible War had a good plot, good level design or even good gameplay (good as in "better then average" here; let's not get above ourselves) - getting to gameplay the biomods don't actually do much as far as I remember (some slight crappy bonuses?), and I can't remember for the life of me an interesting set of weapon options or tactical experiences or set pieces. All corridor shooting and very small, linear levels, even the outside ones. Enemies had insane health or damage at the end (thus why I found it impossible to complete) and as I have said were dumb as bricks walking towards you and firing. It is solid so far as being utterly and fantastically average in all aspects and completely forgettable at the same time.
Agency, if you didn't know, is the ability to do more actions - more things, in interesting ways that might provide emergent situations. Deus Ex you can call out as having problematic skills and abilities, but it does a damn sight more then most RPG's do; you also have to take it "at the time" approach, this is a game done well before many other types of games; it might have something to nod to System Shock but it does a whole bunch differently and well, you just concentrate on the bad things whenever you bring anything from the game up ("you can't shoot at the start" shows this honestly! Playing the tutorial can show you the limits of un-upgraded abilities allowing you to pick specifically at the start how you play; if you picked guns you could kill everyone easily; I have done so before). Some good things include manipulating the AI (who patrols etc.), hacking and sleep/stealth mechanics, finding interesting hidden ways around large levels, and having multi-part objectives with your choice on how to act on them; some coming with a large change to the mission or even the overall story. Invisible War basically had none of this; you might as well shoot everyone because none of it mattered; the plot NPC's are unkillable anyway.
You might say "Oh the AI isn't great!" - it was at the time and still is better then many stealth games today (Far Cry 2 anyone?) - it's intentionally dumb to allow the tropes of stealth to exist, ala Metal Gear Solid. The AI in Invisible War has had years of progress to essentially be the silly "see enemy, shoot until dead" Unreal AI. I can't believe you bring that up as a detriment to Deus Ex and a positive statement to Invisible War.
You also bring up there being many memorable side characters but not main ones; I agree some main ones are boring in Deus Ex (or essentially clichés) but Paul Denton is actually a damn interesting "brother", and the various bad guys have more going for them then simple muscle too. I can't remember anyone in Invisible War unless they were a trope; the fanatical religious genocidal Templar master (must have been a man, I can't remember anything else); the husband and wife running some secret illuminate (remembered since they were always behind bullet proof glass), and...JC Denton and Paul Denton, from the original game! I literally can't remember anyone else...
I personally found the plot excessively dull, predicable and boring after the first chapter (where essentially you're escaping for some reason I recall), and also ultimately stupidly pessimistic in the end. The end game videos are pretty nonsensical (since they are all so X-TREME! ...just why does genocide make it good again?). There is no depth here; it's all glossy, easy to figure out and essentially a power struggle of several stupid groups which you have no real inclination to help one way or the other; they bicker like children and shout their trite sounding rubbish (as in the same rubbish the first game intentionally parodies and uses as...nonsensical rubbish of insane groups you work against). You have no reason to really be helping them anyway; you don't work for any of them at the start, I can't remember how you start to. I don't know how I put up for it most of the game, them demanding you do things because they're "better then the rest", rather then you know, actually doing something worthwhile or helping you in return; I recall the Templars go evil on your ass even if you help them I think, all of them fanatically jackasses; no wonder you liked the endings where each choice killed the others!
Oh and I loved how they shoehorned in JC Denton (being an arse for some reason) in at the end as another possible choice. Apparently the writers forgot there was an original game. A tad rushed 
One thing I positively recall now from the game; there is an AI in the showgirl-cum-bounty-hunter-info-terminal things which was fun (as in it wasn't to do with the silly groups and involved actual espionage) but went no where I recall, simply fizzled out when you finished them all; never mentioned again.
It falls down just in comparison to other games not the original; sorry but I think you're professing to love a pretty average at best game. Most others will agree with me it is unmemorable; I simply can't remember most of it and yes I've tried over the last few days; that speaks volumes about how unfulfilling and boring it was.
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DexJackson
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 12
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| Posted 02/18/11 at 11:07 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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Heh heh, reading the counter-argument there, I'm starting to see the reason -- or, at least the reason in part -- why people don't like Invisible War.
And I think it comes down to this: Invisible War highlighted all the flaws of its predecessor yet somehow manage to rid itself of them, streamline the RPG system and modernise itself for a generation of young 90's gamers becoming teenagers (like me, for instance) as well as create some sort of accessibility for gamers unacustomed to "choice" -- in other words, "blow shit up or sneak around it" -- and form some sort of sensibility about the plot that didn't needlessly draw in loads of irrelevant conspiracy theory cliches and try to do, I suppose, a whole "pseudo Blade Runner" kinda game.
...something like that, anyway.
Reading that argument twice over (I always reread discussions/debate posts at least twice, just in case I miss something or misintepret it given the context), it doesn't hold up for the most part to the points I made in my last counter-argument. In fact, it goes to provide support for them but it also raises an important issue regarding the topic of "accessibility".
Deus Ex was never really an accessible game. It's needlessly complicated and convoluted in areas. Almost every gamer can agree to that when they first played it. In fact, to hold the point further, a friend of mine who tends to like difficulty and challenge in his game didn't get too far with Deus Ex (somewhere around post-Battey Park NYC). He's played Thief 3 and he really liked that and he played Invisible War and he liked that too. He said to me that, "it works" for the latter two games. He also said to me that, "it kinda works, I can see why people like it but...it just doesn't work, if you see what I mean?", for the former. Vague, I know, but I believe when spoken in real-life, that comment has more of an impact.
I think Deus Ex is one of those games where people can like it but they can't reasoably defend it from criticism once one starts to pick it apart like a vulture on roadside carrion. They know why they like it (like you do, Andrew, if I may call you that?), it's just that there's too much that doesn't stand up to the scrutiny such as the kind I'm presenting.
It's like the biomod argument between the two: Biomods in Invisible War win out because they are designed like super-powered utilities which enchance the user's abilities but don't make them "superman" (hence while you can still be killed by well-trained/well-equipped enemy and they allow for limited "plug 'n' play" customisability for players to experiment with different setups while at same time not totally cutting out other playstyles (for instance, the Trier Black Gate section of the game can be done stealthily without stealth-focused Biomods-- I should know, because I did it in my first playthrough and made it through to the Illuminati base in one piece ;-) ).
The A.I comment, too, starts well and then goes bad. Invisible War's stealth AI was the basis for Thief 3's own stealth AI (or, more accurately, was a predecessor of the engine future capabilities for stealth-based gameplay). In Cario, for instance, if you start causing trouble in the apartments, the Templars start calling out for you, deploy spider dones and open doors and search the floor they're on for you fairly thoroughly. Deus Ex's stealth AI rarely was that thorough; on average, the most you would expect was for it to walk around the corner and wait a few seconds for something suspicious and then go back to normal or run around in a particular area frantically and then go back to normal. Hardly "better than many stealth games today", is it?
Story-wise, the Templars are pretty messed up. The whole Cario Tarsus Academy subplot with the biomodified children being shunned and abused and then stopping the corrupt headmaster and his staff from murdering them all was a quest more interesting than many of the ones found in Deus Ex. Deus Ex tended to be so stuck in the world of conspiracies that it almost forgot to address the way the status quo affect everyday people and lives, much less explore the reality of biomodification and how it would affect the societal structure in general.
(Then again, the last half of the paragraph is heavily subjective but it's something I'd like to see addressed in Deus Ex 3-- not that it's likely to be, at any rate.)
Invisible endings are extreme because it had gotten to the point where the world is practically on the verge of collaspe again. Deus Ex's endings were about "with great knowledge comes great responsibility". Invisible War's endings were about the long-term effects on society and individuals and the future of biomodification and centralization. The latter being far more closer to home than the former. Then again, that's up to intepretation, so take em' for whacha you will?
If you "personally" find something boring, that usually means your arguments are based out of peronal belief rather than what's right there on the table (so to speak). That semi-hypothesis up there is probably more on the right track than I give it credit for. ;-)
You don't get to choose who you work with in Deus Ex. No use in using it as a counter-point. /:-)
You can't kill plot NPCs in Deus Ex, either.
Silhouette and a few other factions in-game don't really help you that much other than advance the plot and give you some sort of reason to proceed through the game.
[continues with endless tirade of flaws and other tidbits founds in Deus Ex, whether found in Invisible War too or not]
*pant*...and another thing... *pant*
Actually, F this, let me just talk about Far Cry 2 quickly. FC2's AI is some of the best in the industry to date. It flanks, it circles, it hunts, it retreats, it advances and does it all appropriate to the intensity of the situation. I would strongly suggest having a playthrough of the tutorial sections multiple times to see how the AI reacts everytime you get the first safehouse and rescue your first mercenary contact. The stealth is "realistic" in that game (which is why it pissed off a load of people-- it's like a calmed-down version of OpFlash's) and the approaches you can take to missions are pretty varied (though it takes a experimentation to find this out for yourself).
I'm confused by the end of your argument, though. Are you saying it falls down in comparion to other games in similar genres and not the original, or are you saying it falls down to other games in similar genres exclusive of the original?
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AndrewArmstrong
Moderator - Psychonauts
Registered: 07/22/08
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| Posted 02/21/11 at 06:39 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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FC2's AI if it spots you a mile away is ridiculously hard to evade. It is "good" so far as it can shoot straight, through cover, when it knows you are there. There is no searching, just a reaction if they see you; the guy who made it notes that himself. I recall the AI in Invisible War to be very basic combat-wise, and pretty basic stealth wise - once it saw you all bets were off and it was FPS combat madness, more so then the original. Whether or not it was a precursor to Thief 3 (which itself I recall was called out for the toned down AI compared to the others), is neither here nor there. It wasn't much improved in the searching; and I found it more dumb in the combat routines it did, but whatever, that's down to personal playstyle, I did a lot more stealth in Deus Ex then I normally do in a shooter, I just remember some of the later levels of Invisible War being just corridor shooters; mandatory fights with no cover or ways of doing stealth and enemies who were ridiculously tough.
You can kill several plot NPC's in Deus Ex if you want; Paul can die, optional boss fights against several people who you otherwise normally talk to, I mean, even the first level leaves you to optionally kill the last person with various differences, however minor, to dialogue and rewards (which also occurs in other missions). Maybe I should more say that there is pretty much only one mandatory boss fight in the game; the rest being evadable or with careful consideration don't need to be fatal or even involve combat. Even that fight funnily enough is only mandatory due to almost an oversight making a key unobtainable by normal non-lethal methods (even if the games dialogue only supports the character dying).
As for the plot; I still think it's pretty boring and meh in Invisible War. While searching for what on earth the plot to the game was (You didn't help; frankly those bits I didn't even remember), I found it humorous finding this: http://thenamelessmod.com/wiki/Invisible_War (I know it calls itself biased, but checking wikipedia it is still a mess).
I'll call it a day here; you like it, I think it's average at best, forgettable at worst and not worth revisiting if you haven't got hours and hours of time in your schedule.
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DexJackson
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 12
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| Posted 02/22/11 at 03:59 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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"I'll call it a day here"
Same here. Good discussion with ya. Though I seriously would recommend going back and playing Far Cry 2, just for the first few bits. You know, just because.
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DexJackson
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 12
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| Posted 07/08/11 at 05:47 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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I was sent this PM today from a fellow named "JC". Apparently, JC opted for blocking PMs sent to his account yet decided that he send a PM to me for the seemingly specific reason of provoking me. Heh, cute.
Anyway, since it has a somewhat minor bearing on the discussion in this here thread, here is the PM and my response to it:
Quote: Hey JC,
Your interpretation of my argument in that thread is interesting. How you came up with that conclusion is an unknown to me but then stranger things have happened.
Anyway, rather that PM me about it on here, you're better off actually joining in the discussion through the thread. Go do that first and then we can actually talk about the game-- that's what this forum is for.
DexJackson
Quote: Originally Posted by JC
That post about Invisible War being better than the original Deus Ex made me laugh. You're saying dumbed down games which are more linear are better because it's too complicated for you? Hah.
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