Becca
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Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 108
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| Posted 01/28/11 at 01:41 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| Post your thoughts here about the end of the game. |
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madsdk
Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 68
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| Posted 02/12/11 at 04:06 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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SPOILER
Could anybody tell me exactly what it is that the swans are flying away with in the end? Either the story was hard to follow at that point, or maybe I simply missed something, but I didn't understand what was happening there. Did the swans save the world by removing the last remaining rift in the fabric of reality? If they did, wouldn't that work counter to the whole "world reborn" theme of the story?
Unfortunately I can't easily go through the ending once more. Stupid as I am I forgot to make multiple savegames throughout the game, so the nearest I can get to the end is a savegame from the forge :-)
Best regards,
Mads
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whitewind
Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 7
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| Posted 02/16/11 at 08:05 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by madsdk
SPOILER
Could anybody tell me exactly what it is that the swans are flying away with in the end? Either the story was hard to follow at that point, or maybe I simply missed something, but I didn't understand what was happening there. Did the swans save the world by removing the last remaining rift in the fabric of reality? If they did, wouldn't that work counter to the whole "world reborn" theme of the story?
Unfortunately I can't easily go through the ending once more. Stupid as I am I forgot to make multiple savegames throughout the game, so the nearest I can get to the end is a savegame from the forge :-)
Best regards,
Mads
What I am giving you is just my interpretation of the final scene, but basically Bobbin destroys the Loom because it's the only way to rip the pattern in half , thereby preventing Chaos from dominating over the entire "world". .. Saving half of the pattern nevertheless means damning the other half .Since the flock of swans takes away the portion where Chaos is NOT standing, I guess what you see is the portion of pattern that has been saved, and is brought far away from Chaos.
I know, it's kinda weird isn't it? That's the only explanation I can find that makes some sense, anyway. If anyone else has other ideas, I would be interested in hearing them 
SPOILER WITHIN SPOILER:
I recently discovered that the original version of the game and the remastered version with voices are different : in the remastered version, Chaos tells Bobbin that he will have on the conscience the souls of those he abandoned on his side, and Cygna comforts Bobbin saying they'll be back once their side will be mended. In the original version, the one released for PC/Amiga back in the day, Chaos rages because Bobbin thwarted his plans of conquering the universe, and Cygna says: "The Dead One is correct, my son. Your final draft tore the Pattern in half .This is a sad fate indeed for the innocents trapped on the other side.. However, it is also a chance for we on this side, to begin a second pattern, cleansed of wickedness!". At this point, Bobbin says that they cannot simply abandon the other half, and the reply he gets is: "I fear we have no choice. Until our side of the pattern is mended, we cannot return to the other". I found this difference interesting, what do you think?
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Becca
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Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 108
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| Posted 02/23/11 at 03:46 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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(I've abandoned spoiler tags in the assumption that at this point, most people reading this thread should have beaten it)
I was also super confused by the ending. The fact that Bobbin becomes a swan was pretty obviously going to happen from the beginning, but the rest is a little hazy. Which side of the pattern is the "doomed" one, exactly? The Dead Ones side? Where did I get the impression that the entire world needed be remade and why isn't that the case anymore?
I enjoyed this final boss. I hadn't been playing on hard mode, so having no staff to find the notes was certainly a surprise, but it went easier than I thought. It might have been nice to have a little practice on this sort of thing earlier though.
Anyone have any interest in a 'final thoughts' thread? I feel like it might be better than using this thread but only because I am obsessed with organization.
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whitewind
Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 7
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| Posted 02/23/11 at 06:41 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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With hindsight, I think a foreshadowing of the events to come can be seen at the very beginning, in the hall of the Great Tapestry, since the end of the last panel (the one that deals with the advent of the third shadow) appeared torn apart.
As for the ending itself, I think it is intentionally ambiguous (the fact that two versions of it exist doesn't help either, see above), but the clues that are given point to the fact that pretty much every location that Bobbin visits in the world is left on the "doomed" side, with Chaos. This reinforces the idea that Bobbin's victory is far from being a complete one. I don't know if a sequel was ever planned, but for sure there are enough plot "hooks" for one, starting from the possible return of the flock of swans to settle the score with Chaos to the actual fate of the "doomed" side (for instance, what happens to Rusty and the survivors of the Guilds that have not been wiped out).
I don't know if it'd go better in a "final thoughts" thread, but thinking about the plot as a whole, one fact strikes me: at the shore of wonder, we learn that Cygna performs a forbidden magic and "weaves" a boy (Bobbin) out of the Loom to stop the chaos that she saw spreading throughout the Pattern. However, by considering the role that Bobbin plays in the whole mess, one might be inclined to agree that the Elders' solution was the correct one, since Chaos would never have entered the Pattern if Bobbin hadn't provided the distaff and the knowledge of how to use the opening draft to Mandible...
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Becca
Moderator
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 108
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| Posted 02/23/11 at 07:24 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by whitewind
However, by considering the role that Bobbin plays in the whole mess, one might be inclined to agree that the Elders' solution was the correct one, since Chaos would never have entered the Pattern if Bobbin hadn't provided the distaff and the knowledge of how to use the opening draft to Mandible...
This isn't entirely true. I remembered this specifically because I thought it would have been dumb if Mandible had been planning to steal the distaff all along when he would not have known that there were any weavers wandering about. He says that he was going to find a way to wake the dead but that the distaff makes it much easier. But maybe he wouldn't have succeeded?
My biggest problem with this game is the length and this problem breeds so many others. The ending seems thrown together and rushed. There are some hints throughout the game of what's to come, but I think we would have benefited from more hints and more time. You say that it's intentionally ambiguous, and I hope you're right, but I'm worried that it's really just confusing and not executed properly. The more recent version of the dialogue seems to be more like a softening of the original. Everyone isn't dead, they'll be fine when we come back!
According to Wikipedia, there were once talks of a sequel and the eventual defeat of Chaos. Even if they had been made, I don't think it would have made up for the incompleteness of this game. I really loved this world of guilds where weaving is both magic, music and reality. The shortness of the game is a problem not only because I am so sad to leave the world but also because it detracts from the overall quality of the game. And while I like supplemental material, I feel like I should understand the story from the game on its own.
Anyway, that's basically what I would have said in a final thoughts thread. Continuing the discussion here is probably a better idea.
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whitewind
Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 7
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| Posted 02/24/11 at 01:50 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Mmmh, I must have missed that line of dialogue; in any case, re-reading my post I realized I did not really elaborate my point, as I was thinking about something a bit different from a plot hole: while a lot of adventure games of the time (and rpg/adventure hybrids of the recent past) endeavour to build a fiction where the players are lead to believe that they are creating their own adventure (or at least, the player is willing to suspend his disbelief and ignore the fact that he's just going through motions pre-ordained for him), Loom tries its best to hammer down the notion that everyone in the game world is bound to a fate they cannot escape (the reference to Greek mythology by naming the Elders Clothos, Lachesis and Atropos might not be casual). In the gameplay, the way the player's progression is tightly controlled enforces quite well (up to the point it feels sometimes frustrating, as highlighted by some comments I have read) this idea of inescapable fate. Plot-wise, the biggest -but not only- example of this is the rise of the Third Shadow, which is already written in the Pattern, so Cygna's efforts to try and avert it end up being instrumental for the coming of Chaos... this also gives another rationale for what Bobbin does in the end, since the only way to change the course of history is to rip apart the very pattern of the universe and try to weave it anew. At that point, Bobbin (the player) is free to create his own destiny and the game ends...
My lucubrations on the ending aside, I completely agree that the length of the game is far too short. In a way, I stated my final thoughts in the first post I made: overall, the game feels more like a "proof of concept" rather than a finished product, since the possibilities offered by the spellcasting mechanics are not really explored and the game world is not fleshed out as it should (and as it could have been, judging by the manual). In addition, the game is both shorter and easier than other graphical adventures of the time (let's think about Monkey Island or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, just to cite two other products of Lucasfilm Games).
After checking out the Wikipedia article, I think that if there were indeed some plans for a sequel (at least in the game creator's mind), the reason why the ending is like that is even easier to figure out, since putting a cliffhanger is a cheap but effective tactic to have people buying the sequel as well (for sure I would have been one of those suckers). In any case, I felt that the ending somehow fits the game's atmosphere: it does not fix the shortcomings in the game, and it's unsatisfying for the player on some levels, but I can't say I felt "cheated" by it; on the contrary, I came to appreciate it more on my second playthrough. Then again, it could also have been the result of the project manager saying: "ok, we've spent too much on this game already, wrap everything up in two weeks", we'll probably never know :-).
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davidcarlton
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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 548
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| Posted 02/26/11 at 09:51 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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| I'm done now, still not sure what I think about the game. I like the way weaving became a stronger theme towards the end of the game, talking about the fabric of reality. I liked using tunes instead of items. There were some standard adventure game headaches, but not too many. But Chaos wasn't a very satisfying villain, and while I'm quite happy with short games (e.g. Another World), this seemed to me to lack the poetry the best short games have - more of a summary than a condensed whole.
Certainly glad to have played through it; many thanks to Becca for her championing of the game! |
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madsdk
Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 68
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| Posted 03/04/11 at 01:03 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote:
I recently discovered that the original version of the game and the remastered version with voices are different : in the remastered version, Chaos tells Bobbin that he will have on the conscience the souls of those he abandoned on his side, and Cygna comforts Bobbin saying they'll be back once their side will be mended. In the original version, the one released for PC/Amiga back in the day, Chaos rages because Bobbin thwarted his plans of conquering the universe, and Cygna says: "The Dead One is correct, my son. Your final draft tore the Pattern in half .This is a sad fate indeed for the innocents trapped on the other side.. However, it is also a chance for we on this side, to begin a second pattern, cleansed of wickedness!". At this point, Bobbin says that they cannot simply abandon the other half, and the reply he gets is: "I fear we have no choice. Until our side of the pattern is mended, we cannot return to the other". I found this difference interesting, what do you think?
Interesting. I played the old version, so I got the "sad" ending. Probably like most other adventure gamers, I like to feel like I have accomplished something when I finish a game, but this ending left me wanting in that respect ;-) That doesn't mean that I didn't like the ending. But the ending did feel somewhat contrived - like they were in a hurry to finish the game.
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madsdk
Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 68
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| Posted 03/05/11 at 11:37 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Oh, and many thanks to Becca for championing this playthrough of Loom!
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Becca
Moderator
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 108
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| Posted 03/17/11 at 04:20 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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| You're welcome, guys! I'm glad that you had a good time. |
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