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Nelson

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 95
Reply with quote  #26 
This chapter is the first that makes me think of Chrono Trigger as a really innovative game. The storytelling twist about being thrown in jail is a bit goofy but it's made poignant by the way no one will listen to the poor princess. The jailbreak puzzle is nicely tricky. The shield-wearing sentries made the real time combat system make sense all the sudden. The puzzle to get into the locked cell next to you at the start is neat. The boss fight with the tank is cool. All sorts of little grace notes that combine to make a great RPG. And then two highlights..

I was absolutely astonished by the camera work. Yeah, camera, in a 2d RPG. I thought we'd be limited to the top-down views of the main world and the overworld. But here in Guardia Castle you get a vertigo-inducing side view on the bridges, a full view from behind if you try to scale the tower, and then the fantastic perspective view of The Trial. That's a lot of cinematography for a tiny little sprite game.

The Trial itself is a fun set piece. Very different interaction with the characters than what's come before. Like grobstein I like how this penalizes the traditional "grab everything" aspect of many RPGs, although I don't think I can go so far as to read Camus into it :-) If you're curious about alternate Trial outcomes,this walkthrough has a lot of detail.



I was also really taken by the exquisitely detailed pixel painting of Justice above the judges. All the more astonishing because the game is coy with that image, only showing it for a few seconds on transition into and out of the scene. (Screenshot taken from StrategyWiki; I'm now regretting not playing through on an emulator so I could easily take my own images.)

PS: thanks for the clarification about spoilers. Personally I'm happy to read minor spoilers about alternate choices in the existing game. I'm not about to go and play this game through again!
CRCasey

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Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 26
Reply with quote  #27 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grobstein
Is it possible to get all the jurors on your side? I think the best I've done is 1 guilty vote, 6 not guilty.

The answer is YES.  

The how is...

1.  Admit you started contact.  You ran into to her.

2.  Not interested in the fortune.

3.  Talk to Marle before picking up the pendant.

4.  Don't eat the lunch.

5.  Don't try to sell the pendant.

6.  Return the cat BEFORE you talk to the girl.

7.  Wait at the candy stand.

If you do all of these you get 6 ethers in the bag

-Cecil


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penguindeath

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Registered: 11/07/08
Posts: 44
Reply with quote  #28 
Wow, I had completely forgotten about the Trial.

I too was simply blown away by how gorgeous the graphics are in that segment. It was definitely during the Trial and the Guardia Castle Prison that I really began to appreciate Chrono Trigger's style.

I also found it interesting that the game really wants you to get a Guilty verdict. eg-- The old man and his food. Even if you initially wouldn't care to eat this guy's meal, the way he is placed in the Fair makes you think you can walk right past him, but you can't, pretty much forces you to go around using the other path, taking you right by his food. After being annoyed by him blocking the path, you have more reason to eat his lunch.

I'm also impressed by how much content has been in the game so far, reading through everyone elses impressions, I missed out on a few things, and I made it a point to explore! I assume the developers did this so that multiple play-throughs would yield new surprises in pretty much every environment so far.




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johnnydopefish

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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 47
Reply with quote  #29 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
I was also really taken by the exquisitely detailed pixel painting of Justice above the judges. All the more astonishing because the game is coy with that image, only showing it for a few seconds on transition into and out of the scene.

I find it telling that the depiction of Justice only shows one of his scales, and it's heavily weighted at that

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entrerix

Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #30 
I was really excited by the trial sequence, reminding me a bit of the dinner sequence in final fantasy 6 (where you are asked questions about events and your answers have some interesting outcomes).

Bu then i was much less excited by the prison dungeon, the floors looking identical started screwing with my mind and I began wondering if I was in some sort of time warp (leading to way too much backtracking to make sure I wasnt)

eh, but I did like the exploration required to get down to the gear in the room next to the start room, it really felt like I was venturing into the unknown as I headed down the tower face.

davidcarlton

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Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 548
Reply with quote  #31 
I really enjoyed this part of the game. Again, there's no crap thrown in your way here: if you want, you can wander around the world for a while before going to the Castle (as I did), but that's purely voluntary and the travel is so fast that there's no tedium involved. (Speaking of voluntary, I also liked the fact that you can either go right past the bridge in the overworld or enter into it, cross over it, and talk to people.) You do have to spend a couple of minutes fighting monsters in the forest, but there are so many JRPGs that would require you to spend half an hour fighting random enemies to get to the next plot event that such a brief interlude hardly counts as a strike against this one.

And then I totally wasn't expecting the trial, and I really enjoyed their pulling in consequences of your previous actions. (Though I wasn't sure how much there actually were consequences - thanks for the explanations!) (And I agree with Nelson, the art there really is nice.)

After which there's a dungeon. But it's a short one without a lot of fighting, and I liked the little "find your way to the two locked cells" puzzle. And spending time with different characters in your party is a nice touch - I'm always annoyed by JRPGs that make me pick and choose whom I'm going to fight with, and while I realize that I'll have to do that eventually in this game as well, I'm glad that I don't have to do that yet but am still getting some diversity in my companions.
crimsonclone

Registered: 09/02/08
Posts: 156
Reply with quote  #32 
Well I have to admire the creativity in the Guardia legal system. No due process but all prisoners upon conviction are allowed to keep all weapons, armor, and other items they might have when arrested. This allows for an appeal system where a prisoner proves they are worthy of an appeal by escaping their cell and a successful appeal is the process of butchering every guard in the prison area. This makes me wonder what the turnover rate of Guardia Castle's guard contingent is, especially considering the guards show no fear entering a cell with an armed prisoner. The number of successful appeals must have been high, given the kingdom sprung for a tank to keep the exit secure.

Pretty setpieces but no I can't get over the fact that after trying so hard to have Crono executed the Chancellor and his guards fail to notice they didn't confiscate his weapons.

To top it off, if Crono is okay with killing the castle guards why but up with the farce of the trial. The evidence is stacked against him so take out the guards and make a run for it. Its really why trials and rpgs just don't mix. Most problems end with a violent solution or have a violent solution yet when the player is put on trial or gets to play lawyer for some reason the might makes right option disappears. So let me demonstrate the chancellor is wrong with a sword.

vonlenska

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #33 
Actually, you can escape without killing any guards (except for the first two guarding your cell, which are mandatory). If you try and attack them when their back is turned, you'll instantaneously knock them unconscious, where they'll remain for the rest of this episode. So I take from that that either Crono isn't actually killing anyone, but just beating up anyone who gets in his way, or it's another little moral choice that's left up to the player. Kill the guards for a speedier escape or wait for them to position just right and knock them out cold? Your call. There's also the wrongly imprisoned merchant boy who you can free or abandon, the consequences of which I'm not sure since I always free him. Maybe you get a discount at his parents' store?

It is strange that you're allowed to keep your weapons, though, especially since there's a second prison escape where they do get confiscated.
ILR

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 140
Reply with quote  #34 
All right, so this is where the Fair encounters were summed up. My memory's not as leaky as I feared.

Once again, killing clearly human opponents is a lot more disturbing than those goblin encounters. The general silliness goes a bit overboard here with the pre-teen badass Crono being detained by a bunch of mooks who are eliminated in one hit. Couldn't they at least confiscate his weapons into the mandatory nearby locker so you'd have to think of something clever to deal with those two first guards. Such as using that ball-and-chain as a weapon?

Vintage Game II, Deus Ex, did the capture scene a lot better. You were stranded at a neighborhood in New York and your pilot was waiting for you at the next metro station. To get there, you had to navigate through a very heavy enemy presence just to access the subway and even if you got to the next stop, the pilot would inform you that he's forced to withdraw due to enemies concentrating on the subway exit. If you still got to the exit by beating or evading a mini-boss - your former superior - you were faced with a small army of enemy troops plus another mini-boss who was for practical purposes made invincible for that encounter (I never got that far but this was discussed back then). After the defeat, you weren't killed but detained in a Very Secret Base and the plot advanced accordingly. And yes, the custom made guns were taken from you. All this was optional, you could succumb to the first enemy who barges through your door (or smoke a pack of cigarettes as someone did in a speedrun ), and the end result would be the same. But at least the illusion of actually being put against a superior force was left unshattered. Your character was a one-man killing force but even he has to submit to a full-scale military organization.

So yeah, the jail scene is probably not the Chrono Trigger's high point and probably not meant to be taken too seriously but the little voice screaming "There's only four of'em! And I got Potions, too!" at the back of my skull just won't stop.
EvilDan

Registered: 10/23/08
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #35 
Usually I hate hate hate cutscenes. 

I actually enjoyed the trial though.  I think that the fact that it changes due to your (arbitrary) actions earlier on makes it a lot more personal. 

I am okay with being chided for doing what is normal in an RPG (eating someone's lunch, etc) -- because it kind of brings a spotlight on the absurdity of in-game behavior.  Once again nodding to the 4th wall.
baf

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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #36 
The trial reminded me a lot of a similar scene in Ultima VII Part 2: The Serpent Isle, where testimony is brought forth that the Avatar was observed barging into strangers' homes and rifling through their possessions -- that is, acting like a player character in a RPG.  I don't think that bit was actually contingent on player actions in the way that the trial in Chrono Trigger is, though.

For what it's worth, I only got one vote in my favor.  I had tried to be thorough at the fair and do everything there was to be done, multiple times with different choices if possible.  As such, I did nearly everything that could affect the trial for good or ill.  But there are so many more opportunities to hurt your standing at the trial than to help it!  I assume this is deliberate: the designers want to stack things against you, but also want you to feel like the outcome is your own fault.

I'll agree with ILR that it's a little uneasy to suddenly be fighting humans.  And not just humans, but people who are nominally on the same side as you, loyal to the same king, people who are only in your way because of a misunderstanding, and someone else's misunderstanding at that. 
crimsonclone

Registered: 09/02/08
Posts: 156
Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonlenska
Actually, you can escape without killing any guards (except for the first two guarding your cell, which are mandatory). If you try and attack them when their back is turned, you'll instantaneously knock them unconscious, where they'll remain for the rest of this episode. So I take from that that either Crono isn't actually killing anyone, but just beating up anyone who gets in his way, or it's another little moral choice that's left up to the player. Kill the guards for a speedier escape or wait for them to position just right and knock them out cold? Your call.


I noticed some of the guards could be knocked out but I never figured out why some were being knocked out and others would initiate a fight. In retrospect I'll give this section some credit for trying to provide a moral choice but it would have been nice to know about that mechanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILR
Vintage Game II, Deus Ex, did the capture scene a lot better.


I think why a game like Deus Ex was able to pull off that scenario and why Chrono Trigger or most level based RPGs start to break down in similar circumstances is the dissonance between a player's known combat abilities and the game's internal logic. While the player is empowered in Deus Ex, the players health remains constant and as a result weapons that are deadly at the beginning of the game are just as deadly at the end of the game. As a result, the game can create a no win situation that seems logical. Chrono Trigger is level based and as a result there is the expectation the player can fight out of any situation because the player is exponentially better then any threat of lower level and is capable of winning against any threat of equal level. The only threat that will consistently be deadly to the player is threats of higher level. This creates absurdity in the game's internal world, if say a castle guard is as strong as the protagonist then why aren't they saving the world (see Oblivion guards for an example) or the DnD Baldur's Gate 2 example where by the end of the game's expansion ancient demons and minor gods were doing menial guard duty to provide any threat to the player.

Anyway, I can still see what the designers are going for here and in other scripted sequences that try to play the 'oh-no we are outnumbered' but for the most part they just don't work in the context of the established game world. It's not really Chrono Trigger's fault, just about every RPG has problems reconciling its narative with the world established through its combat system but its something that is frustrating when its obvious.
 

johnnydopefish

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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 47
Reply with quote  #38 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baf
I'll agree with ILR that it's a little uneasy to suddenly be fighting humans.  And not just humans, but people who are nominally on the same side as you, loyal to the same king, people who are only in your way because of a misunderstanding, and someone else's misunderstanding at that. 

I look at it this way--

The heavily armored guards are hardly innocent, upstanding citizens.  They are not "on your side," they show themselves to be willing to beat the hair gel out of you at the slightest provocation (and in fact, they do it twice).  They are the Chrono Trigger equivalent of the corrupt cop who beats and sodomizes suspects when he thinks nobody's looking.  The fact that they are masked head to toe in steel armor insulates them from physical threats, and much like a hooded executioner they know damn well what they're doing-- they just don't want you to see their faces and allow you to associate their faces with their actions.

Then there are the shield guys.  They actually don't bother you if you run between or around them.  But again they are dehumanized by being clad in full black garb.  I don't really know what to make of them since they discredit my theory to a degree, unless somehow they aren't really human (doubtful).

Next we have the Punisher guy.  Another enemy clad head to toe in armor, he runs away when you beat him up enough so it's clear he's just a guy doing his job.  But you don't (can't!) kill him.

The final human "enemy" you encounter in the dungeon is very visibly human (the blue-suited supervisor).  When you were first hauled into the prison, this was the guy who questioned whether or not you were supposed to be put on death row until the Chancellor pulled rank and made him comply with it.  He is not a bad person, he's just another guy doing his job.  You don't have the opportunity to kill him since he ends up knocking himself unconscious.

So of all the human enemies in the dungeon, you are free to kill the most despicable ones.  It is no coincidence that these people are humanoid in shape but not visibly human.  You are not able to kill any of the guards "just doing their jobs."

But of these evil characters, are they really human?  In 1000 AD, a soldier in the barracks will tell you "those jail guardians were an odd bunch.  We got cold stares from them.  It's like they weren't even human!"


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entrerix

Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #39 
the capture scenario and subsequent escape in Deus Ex is in my opinion the best of it's kind (ignoring Chronicles of Riddick escape from butcher bay - which the entire game makes up said scenario) followed by the first metal gear solid escape - ketchup anyone?
artfulgamer

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Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 20
Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
The trial reminded me a lot of a similar scene in Ultima VII Part 2: The Serpent Isle, where testimony is brought forth that the Avatar was observed barging into strangers' homes and rifling through their possessions -- that is, acting like a player character in a RPG. I don't think that bit was actually contingent on player actions in the way that the trial in Chrono Trigger is, though.


Baf - I had the same feeling while I was playing through the trial scene. Serpent Isle's scene is very, very similar -- however CT really nails it I think. Glad to see someone else that remembered that scene

It's not only that they penalize players who eat the lunch, though, I think.. since everyone is penalized in the scene no matter what they do. It's more the fact that I *feel* that I've penalized myself by being greedy. The great thing is that even if I get all the jurors on my side, I'll still be penalized. That's what this scene shares so much with Serpent Isle - it has that age-old theme of the corruption of power. I could be way off here, but it reminds me in many ways of the trial of Socrates -- you are doomed to guilt despite (or perhaps because of?) your innocence.

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AndrewArmstrong

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Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 365
Reply with quote  #41 
Going back to the future, good stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimsonclone
Well I have to admire the creativity in the Guardia legal system. No due process but all prisoners upon conviction are allowed to keep all weapons, armor, and other items they might have when arrested. This allows for an appeal system where a prisoner proves they are worthy of an appeal by escaping their cell and a successful appeal is the process of butchering every guard in the prison area. This makes me wonder what the turnover rate of Guardia Castle's guard contingent is, especially considering the guards show no fear entering a cell with an armed prisoner. The number of successful appeals must have been high, given the kingdom sprung for a tank to keep the exit secure.


Haha, this sums up the insaneness of the situation for me. The trial itself is fine - relatively fun (again I dismiss this being a good set of choices, since apart from one there is no real "choice" - I didn't even notice the lunch!). Over the top lunacy is fine, I've played all the Phoenix Wright games and the evidence, when compared, is pretty solid Not guilty for me!

The insane part comes from letting in a fully armed prisoner who will be, according to the chancellor, put to death! Not read up on his evil overlord list methinks.

Sadly, I knew about this trial in advance - I didn't know much beyond it, but I saw my friends playing it together up to around this point (I didn't know exactly what influenced the guilty/not guilty though). At least these things are still in your memory - many games put a trial well after the events, so long that you've forgotten what you were doing at the time! flashbacks really help here.

I killed a ton of stuff in prison, but dodged a lot too. Seeing the tourture chamber didn't really make me want to avoid much more after that though - a bit of a sad legal system if they have guillotines! I didn't know you could knock out guards though - the lack of any kind of tutorial for this kind of mechanic really does make me wish it had optional popups to help explain the stranger ways of doing things.

Exiting - the guard who obviously can't fight being knocked out was rather funny, and the Boss fight was relatively fun, as was the outcome (human bridge!). Doing it in a real 2d plane instead of pseudo-3d was interesting too - a bit odd with some of the animations (Crono can go below the bridge with his swinging sword attack!) but still looks cool set to that sky background.

Oddly, once you leave you can never come back. I am sure I missed some treasure, but there is a limit to how much I want to go back to previous rooms. With no good directional map, if you are lucky and find the way to the exit first time, you miss out on things which take a while to go back and explore - as in, there is no way to know which was you went before!

Interesting reading about the gameplay alterations that happen on guilty/not guilt and the possible rescue by Lucca, and the mantatory guard kills (although with no blood, is anything really "killed"?).

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entrerix

Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #42 
It's kind of funny for me, being an attorney in real life, that I paid so little attention to the insanity of the legal system in the game, I guess after a while you get so used to "the law" as seen on tv and in film, that I don't even care anymore when I see legal system butchery such as that found here, because pop culture is filled to the brim with faux legal scenario's anyway.

The only time I ever really scrutinize fictional representations of legal systems is when they come close to real life - in other words, almost never.


AndrewArmstrong

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Reply with quote  #43 
I think even in films and TV, they don't give the prisoner his murder weapon back before putting him in a cell that's the insane part for most people, the bizarre legal system is actually "more sane" then most ones before real law, where it was just a figure of authority passing judgement off the bat (if at all), be it king, lord, sherrif, church or whatever.

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entrerix

Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #44 
too true, though now I find myself relishing the idea of a Law and Order episode where a captured criminal is given an assault rifle before being put in his holding cell.
grobstein

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Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #45 
Hey, just because you're a prisoner doesn't mean you can be stripped of your civil rights. As Moxy Fruvous says, "It's a constitutional right; can't be refuted." Mere convenience is no excuse for ignoring the commands of the Second Amendment.
AndrewArmstrong

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Posts: 365
Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by grobstein
Hey, just because you're a prisoner doesn't mean you can be stripped of your civil rights. As Moxy Fruvous says, "It's a constitutional right; can't be refuted." Mere convenience is no excuse for ignoring the commands of the Second Amendment.


Huh?

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johnnydopefish

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Reply with quote  #47 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewArmstrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by grobstein
Hey, just because you're a prisoner doesn't mean you can be stripped of your civil rights. As Moxy Fruvous says, "It's a constitutional right; can't be refuted." Mere convenience is no excuse for ignoring the commands of the Second Amendment.


Huh?

Convicted felons are not allowed to bear arms.  If you are arrested for a crime, but not actually tried and convicted of it yet, then in theory you should still be able to bear arms while awaiting trial

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AndrewArmstrong

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Reply with quote  #48 
Okay, but that is totally irrelevant here...you straight away go to trial (even faster then Phoenix Wright land), hehe.

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sharc

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Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 81
Reply with quote  #49 
hah, wow i got behind on this thanks to my move and increased commute.

the trial is one of the game's most impressive setpieces - the unique theme music, the exquisite sprite art of the courtroom, the elaborate scripting that pulls in earlier events. aside from making an impression, it also allows a non-combat situation to advance the plot, if only for a brief while. it's neat that so much effort is put into making you feel so set upon here. the trial distorts your intentions at every turn, the court protests every verdict in your favor, and perspective seems to bend every line so that the whole room bears down on your lonely little spotlight-lit stand.

it is kind of a cheap shot though, to punish you for the jrpg hero behavior of acting like the world revolves around you and taking people's stuff. there's no way to predict that those actions will have consequences; not only does it go against assumed genre conventions,  but more importantly outside of this scene i don't remember the game itself ever doing anything else to encourage you to behave like a normal human instead of grabbing whatever isn't nailed down.

the whole thing is also a bit of a throwaway plot device, here to toss you into jail and send you off an escaped convict, again without much securely tied to the rest of the game before or after this scene. we have an idyllic land with no problems, no enemies and a huge celebration. then the trial blindisdes us, revealing massive corruption in the highest offices of government, miscarriage of justice and torture chambers. then we escape and never return to this plot thread again, unless it's in a sidequest wrapping up the already-present loose ends from this whole scene. nevermind the guillotines, everyone, back to blue skies and fairgrounds!

it is kind of nice that crono is more or less the only prisoner here, although that just makes it all the more strange that it' in use at all, or that there's a full complement of guards on duty. after all, there wasn't any need for prisons in the middle ages, during the height of war with a foreign power. just kind of strange, and seems to go against the rest of the happy themes here. i'd expect it to be the other way around, with the blatant viciousness of the prison in the middle ages instead of 1000 ad.
ILR

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 140
Reply with quote  #50 
Ugh, my original message got lost but in short, I happened to read Harlan Ellison's famous short story I have no mouth, and I must scream and the similarities to this section are obvious. Sparsely populated future dystopia. Remnants of humankind barely staying alive in constant hunger in their revitalized bodies. Rats. A doomed quest for some canned foodstuff through a hostile mechanical environment. The most far out aspects of the story are thankfully removed but the basic gist is certainly familiar here.

Anyone else notice the same?

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