brainygamer

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Registered: 07/13/08 Posts: 524
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Posted 06/19/11
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#1
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Post your thoughts on the Fire Temple here.
__________________ Michael Abbott
Brainy Gamer blog and podcast
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MoriartyL

Registered: 01/20/09 Posts: 295
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Posted 06/22/11
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#2
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I'm fortunate that the N64 cartridge I bought off eBay happens to be an original version. I had heard once that the original Fire Temple music had been censored, but I had no idea what a difference it would make. Here's the song from the first released version of the game. Yeah, those are Muslim chants in it. And they were taken out of the later cartridges, as well as all later releases to avoid offending Muslims. (How having your religion associated with one of the best dungeons of the best game ever is offensive, I have no idea. They should have changed it to Jewish chanting; we'd be less uptight about it.)
What the music does to the dungeon is give the whole thing an atmosphere of reverence. Personally, I found it changed the whole way I approached the dungeon. I found that I had to take the experience more seriously because of the mood set by the praying. And what I realized in this context is that the Fire Temple is more brilliant than I'd ever given it credit for.
This dungeon does not focus on an item the way previous dungeons did. You get the hammer, but it's not used for puzzles or general combat here. You're really just using it for a few switches, and then the boss. But this dungeon has a strong narrative focus throughout. This is the moment where we have to actually be an adult, instead of just looking like one.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's how development on this thing started: with its director (likely Eiji Aonuma) deciding how to best present the concept of adulthood as gameplay. Adulthood means you're not just thinking about yourself anymore, you're thinking about your family and community. The fact that Dodongo's Cavern ended with Link becoming an honorary Goron means that the Fire Temple can use the Gorons to consider this idea.
When you first enter you meet Darunia, who is about to face Volvagia even though he knows he can't possibly beat him. He is choosing his actions not by what is fun or what is easy but by what is right and necessary. In this we see that Darunia has grown no less than Link. Seven years ago, he locked himself in his room because he was angry, and only reluctantly helped save his people when Link cheered him up. That puzzle was just light comic relief, but Darunia has been through hell with his people and he's had to become an actual leader. The Gorons aren't funny anymore, hunched in their cells.
Structurally, this place is inspired. The first room has the boss door, so that we can meet Darunia who mentions the hammer. The same room has the first Goron to rescue, giving the dungeon its shape. We keep going higher and higher from there, freeing Gorons along the way, finding the hammer at the very top. The movement-challenge in which you get it emphasizes this ascension, which is symbolic of rising to challenges or perhaps growing up in general. And then you return to where you started with a minimum of wasted time, search until you find every last Goron and fight Volvagia.
The Megaton Hammer is fascinating for how it contrasts with earlier items. First off, there's the visual of how heavy it is. In later Zelda games oversized items are employed for simple visual comedy, but here there's an intentional symbolism to an item which is so big it requires two hands and hinders normal movements. But unlike the items we got as a kid, this is not fun to play with. It's not easy to use it in combat, and it doesn't have a whole lot of uses otherwise. There's none of the joy in using it that we might have had with the boomerang or the bombs. The hammer is a tool, not a toy. We're using it not because it's enjoyable, but because we have to in order to free our "family".
Edit: There's a little moment at the end where we fight a miniboss (Flare Dancer) expecting a Boss Key, and instead we get (useless) bombs. It's like the game is mocking us for expecting a reward for our actions. That's not why you fight.
__________________ My computer games (for Windows and Linux):
http://www.TheBuckmans.com/games.html
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Whistler

Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 55
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Posted 06/22/11
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#3
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wow, I love that music track, and I enjoyed your analysis.
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TylorWayne

Registered: 06/18/11 Posts: 28
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Posted 06/29/11
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#4
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Quote: Originally Posted by MoriartyLI'm fortunate that the N64 cartridge I bought off eBay happens to be an original version. I had heard once that the original Fire Temple music had been censored, but I had no idea what a difference it would make. Here's the song from the first released version of the game. Yeah, those are Muslim chants in it. And they were taken out of the later cartridges, as well as all later releases to avoid offending Muslims. (How having your religion associated with one of the best dungeons of the best game ever is offensive, I have no idea. They should have changed it to Jewish chanting; we'd be less uptight about it.)
I have heard about that music before but it turns out that the story about it being removed because of the public outcry is a myth. (source)
That aside, this is one of my favorite dungeons and where the game really starts to take off for me. Similar to how people described the chain bomb in Dodongo's Cavern I find it very satisfying when the action I take causes a big change in the environment. Hitting a switch makes a staircase fall into place with a satisfying thud and knocking out a block can make way for a several story, free-falling express elevator.
It is also after this dungeon where I really feel like the world is open to me. By this point I have won the horse Epona to speed across the landscape, I've found bombs that blow through walls, I've gained the hookshot to reach new ledges, and I've gained the megaton hammer which can make short work of any rock standing in my way. I think some exploring and and side quests may be in order now.
On a side note, I've always wondered where Darunia runs off to after we meet him at the beginning. He's nowhere to be found in the boss's room.
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TylorWayne

Registered: 06/18/11 Posts: 28
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Posted 06/29/11
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#5
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Also, is it strange that I went through this entire dungeon without ever finding the map or compass?
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MoriartyL

Registered: 01/20/09 Posts: 295
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Posted 06/30/11
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#6
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Quote: Originally Posted by TylorWayneI have heard about that music before but it turns out that the story about it being removed because of the public outcry is a myth. ( source) Well, whatever the reason was, it was a mistake.
__________________ My computer games (for Windows and Linux):
http://www.TheBuckmans.com/games.html
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beigeturner
Registered: 04/27/10 Posts: 5
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Posted 07/02/11
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#7
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I like the whole level lay out in this dungeon. There is a point where the player ends up on top, to knock down the pillar, and navi mentions how "you can see clear to the first room". Also, using the scarecrow, the player can get even higher. Falling through either opening shows how big this dungeon really is as the screen "changes" as the player descends.
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thisyearsmodel

Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 187
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Posted 07/07/11
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#8
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I have to say, I'm really loving the process of rediscovering these last few dungeons in particular. It's been a long enough time since originally playing OoT that I've encountered some genuine challenge in solving the puzzles; it really does feel like a new game all over again (albeit one with occasional, extremely vivid moments of deja vu).
Probably my favorite moment in that regard was the aforementioned Fire Dancer miniboss - although I wouldn't have told you so if you'd asked me in the middle of the battle. I started the fight following the advice of one of the Gorons I'd rescued and using the "Gorons' special crop"; me being me, however, I was interpreting his advice the wrong way and quickly wasted all of my bombs by hurling them at the Dancer while it was protected by its fiery "outfit." At this point, I panicked and frantically tried hitting it with every weapon in my arsenal: sword, arrows, I even swear I used the Hookshot a few times to no avail. It was while taking an intentional beating and waiting for my fairies to run out that I made one last, desperate attack with the Hookshot; lo and behold, that was the trick! It was definitely one of those moments of frustration that felt sooo satisfying after I'd worked my way out of what I thought was an unwinnable situation.
I'm also going to agree with beigeturner and say that, while I did have moments of frustration getting around (particularly in the many minutes before I realized I'd need the Scarecrow to reach the uppermost floors on the right), I was hugely impressed by the verticality of this dungeon. There were a few times where I even used the "shortcut" of taking a death plunge down two floors into the room with the bridge - sure, it took a heart away, but it saved time and looked incredible in 3D!
Also, to echo TylorWayne, while the hammer wasn't quite as integral to the dungeon's puzzles as some of the earlier items had been to their respective dungeons (actually a good thing...Ocarina for the most part seems to avoid the "one-trick dungeon" trap of a lot of more recent Zeldas), it still felt like a game-changer when I received it because of the sheer magnitude of its effect on the environment. Pounding down huge pillars and making stairs where they hadn't been before made me feel powerful in the best way.
Finally, as always I appreciate MoriartyL's unpacking of the game's surprisingly consistent coming-of-age theme. It was interesting to see the profound growth of even one of the supporting characters over seven years; Darunia's courage at the beginning of the dungeon, and later his humble pleasure over becoming a Sage, was genuinely heartwarming. Still so impressed by how this game's narrative does so much with so little.
Along those lines, here's something I forgot to mention in my Forest Temple commentary: I'm really enamored by the way the game communicates Link's exhaustion when he reaches his final heart (though I could frankly do without the traditional shrill beeping noise). In both the Phantom Ganondorf and Volvagia battles, I beat the boss when I myself was on the verge of defeat; seeing the boss fall, followed by Link sagging and breathing heavily, is a really dramatic moment expressed entirely through the game's mechanics. One of those little moments that makes me think, yes, there really is a lot of potential for telling interactive stories that differ from the way we experience more traditional narratives.
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phisheep

Registered: 06/18/11 Posts: 55
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Posted 07/12/11
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#9
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Might have rushed this one a it, as I played it in a hospital emergency reception last night and with due regard to battery life ignored my stated aim of playing it "as new". Otherwise I'd have been eaten by Like-Likes several times as well as being burnt by slugs.
First time round I spent days in here, and I must say it is a lot easier to keep in the head if you play it quickly.
I love the way the various components of the dungeon are presaged by previous dungeons or by the imprisoned Gorons (who give you a 'key' in more ways than one). Perhaps the most memorable is the two tiny crates in the room with the descending staircase. Hands up whose first instinct was to destroy them? Hands up me. And yet we've seen this already in Jabu-Jabu's Belly.
I guess I'm not the only person ever to make it all the way down to the pre-boss room with the boss key only to find they hadn't bashed the right bit of stone four floors up with the big hammer?
Please tell me that's so.
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MoriartyL

Registered: 01/20/09 Posts: 295
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Posted 07/12/11
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#10
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Quote: Originally Posted by phisheep I guess I'm not the only person ever to make it all the way down to the pre-boss room with the boss key only to find they hadn't bashed the right bit of stone four floors up with the big hammer?
Please tell me that's so.
I'll do you one better. Not only did I not realize I could knock down the stone the first time I played, but I played the game through a second and third time and still didn't realize that was possible. (I had played very few videogames in my life before.) You see, it is technically possible to jump from the platform on the left of the boss door up to the platform with the boss door. I know this because the very first time I tried, I made it by sheer luck. And just to emphasize how ridiculously unlikely this was: the first few times I played this game it was on a PC emulator with a keyboard. I made that jump with the arrow keys, and didn't understand what had just taken place. I went down again, and spent literally hours trying to get up again. With arrow keys, the way to aim your jump is to turn to the side, wait for the camera to start turning, press up at the right moment to stop the camera, maybe Z-target, and then run straight forward. I did this over and over and over, not understanding why I was suddenly unable to make what I thought was a simple and necessary jump. I quickly concluded that this was a casualty of the emulation, and that actually it would be quite simple with an analog stick. But since I didn't have that, I'd just have to suffer through it. So I did. And eventually I made it and beat the dungeon. So not only did I not know about that platform, but in the next few years I played the game again, still without realizing my mistake! With the later emulators I was able to use save states so that once I managed to get up I wouldn't have to do it again. But I still didn't understand I was doing it wrong, because I'd already done it this way and it worked.
When I found out, I felt like such a moron...
Edit: Come to think of it, I might only have realized what I was doing wrong when I played the Gamecube version and still couldn't make that jump. Wow, bad times.
__________________ My computer games (for Windows and Linux):
http://www.TheBuckmans.com/games.html
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thisyearsmodel

Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 187
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Posted 07/13/11
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#11
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@MoriartyL: Wow, that's impressive! Almost defeats the whole purpose of the hammer in the dungeon when you do it that way (although I think it's still necessary for at least the Boss Key, if not the boss itself).
@phisheep: I totally smashed those boxes the moment I saw them, in both the Fire Temple and Jabu-Jabu's Belly. They probably made them breakable for that very reason...after being trained to smash every pot and cut every bush you see, what else are you supposed to think?!
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shallow_depths

Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 26
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Posted 07/14/11
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#12
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After knowing exactly where I was and where I was going in the Forest Temple I didn't feel nearly as well orientated in the Fire Temple. It took me longer to find the map, and I didn't pick up the compass. I found the chest I think but it had another one of those timed switches and I couldn't work out how to get to the chest quickly enough.
This is not a criticism. The Fire Temple's another well put together dungeon, with (as others have pointed out) great use of vertical space.
It's a shame about the music. That would have given the place a very different feel. I didn't get a feeling of reverence, but I am very taken with the idea of Gorons as family. I appreciate that they still love and recognise me when the Kokiri didn't (although perhaps not so much when they are scared and huddled in their cells). It made rescuing them more meaningful.
I might be reading too much into this, but finding keys in cells felt like a deliberate joke to me, very much in contrast to the weighty hammer and lives at stake. Among all this growing up and serious world-saving business I can still hang on to some light-hearted things. That's important.
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thisyearsmodel

Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 187
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Posted 07/15/11
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#13
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Quote: Originally posted by shallow_depths I am very taken with the idea of Gorons as family. I appreciate that they still love and recognise me when the Kokiri didn't (although perhaps not so much when they are scared and huddled in their cells). It made rescuing them more meaningful.
That's a really interesting observation...there is definitely a thematic undercurrent in this game about the nature of family, with Link as an "adopted" child of the Kokiri and later the Gorons, with a closer bond seemingly the further he gets from his own "real" heritage (I don't think we ever know who Link's birth parents are, except that they're clearly human or Hylian or whatever). It's not something the game really foregrounds or explores in detail, but that's okay; I like the fact that it's there in any capacity.
Also, your comment about the keys being locked in the cells with the Gorons was pretty funny, and surprisingly something that didn't occur to me. If you think about it, though, these are the same people who allowed themselves to reach the brink of starvation because they couldn't eat their favorite rocks; at least they're consistent, I guess.
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apoloimagod

Registered: 09/29/09 Posts: 44
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Posted 08/18/11
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#14
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Well, I finally beat this dungeon. Had to stop playing it for about a week, and then had to play it bits by bits (haven't had much time recently), but I'm done. This dungeon was noticeably harder than the previous one (Forest Temple), at least in terms of the puzzles. I got stuck a few times... but the one that ticked me off the most was that room in the top floor that shows on the map, but I couldn't get to. I spent an hour moving throughout the whole dungeon trying to find a way into this room... I finally caved in and made a quick web search only to realize I needed this special song (which I don't have) to get there... *sigh* moving on...
Although the dungeon itself was a bit tougher, the boss was actually very easy... surprisingly so.
Overall, I preferred the Forest Temple (which at the moment is my favorite section of the game... so far). Even the item you get here, the hammer, is not that interesting...
__________________ -- AI
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thisyearsmodel

Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 187
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Posted 08/18/11
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#15
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I had similar problems with this dungeon, especially with the (admittedly optional) part requiring the scarecrow to reach. Trying to figure that out was maddening!
Keep on truckin', I'm glad to see a decent amount of people still in it for the long haul!
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